“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

HR Heretics

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can onl...

Airbnb’s Iain Roberts on Designing HR as a Strategic Service Function

Airbnb’s Iain Roberts on Designing HR as a Strategic Service Function

Iain Roberts, Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, discusses experimenting in HR in 2025, the design-thinking reshaping organizational structures, and why CEO Brian Chesky’s ‘Founder Mode’ is much misinterpreted. Iain covers innovative approach to flexible work, cross-functional alignment, and treating employee programs as evolving products requiring continuous refinement.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kel

Feb 20, • 40:19

Board Seats and Beyond, with Asana's Head of People Anna Binder

Board Seats and Beyond, with Asana's Head of People Anna Binder

Anna Binder, Head of People at Asana, shares her journey as an HR leader, her approach to board membership at CultureAmp, and her philosophy on talent management. The discussion covers the nitty gritty of preparing and contributing in board meetings, long-term DEI initiatives, and the importance of authentic leadership in HR, particularly highlighting the value of playing the long game in organizational development.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching

Feb 18, • 45:02

Tucking In Top Performers

Tucking In Top Performers

Nolan and Kelli talk about retaining top-performing employees (the crucial 1%) and emphasize that compensation alone isn't sufficient; leaders must combine verbal recognition, proactive compensation strategies, transparency, and genuine appreciation. They stress the importance of eliminating compensation anxiety for these key employees and building long-term relationships, and argue that thoughtful, personalized treatment of top talent ultimately benefits both the individual and organization.Ema

Feb 14, • 15:08

Anthropic’s Interview Rules

Anthropic’s Interview Rules

Nolan and Kelli talk about AI's role in hiring processes, sparked by Anthropic's policy against using AI in job applications. They explore the tension between AI as a valuable tool and its potential for interview deception, ultimately advocating for a more integrated approach where candidates openly demonstrate their AI usage skills rather than attempting to restrict or hide it.Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidr

Feb 12, • 15:14

TikTok & Tech Layoff Strategy with Jesse Tinsley

TikTok & Tech Layoff Strategy with Jesse Tinsley

Entrepreneur Jesse Tinsley - founder of Employer.com and other successful tech ventures - discusses his consortium's bid to acquire TikTok alongside MrBeast. The dialogue with Kelli and Nolan examines the philosophical and practical implications of executive compensation reduction during corporate restructuring, while illustrating how digital discourse can evolve into substantive debate when moved from social media to direct dialogue.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentin

Feb 7, • 24:04

Hidden Job Market: Exec Hiring 2025 with Adam Ward

Hidden Job Market: Exec Hiring 2025 with Adam Ward

Adam Ward (founding partner, Growth by Design) discusses the current landscape of executive hiring in people/talent roles, particularly the prevalence of "pocket listings" - positions filled through private networks rather than public postings. He offers insights into what CEOs value in people leaders (business-driven mindset, operational excellence), how candidates can effectively navigate professional networks, and the importance of structured hiring processes.*Email us your questions or topic

Feb 4, • 45:43

Navigating the Complexity of Company Values

Navigating the Complexity of Company Values

Kelli and Nolan examine the art of building authentic company values. Through real-world experiences, they reveal the methodical process of transforming abstract principles into tangible organizational behavior that drives meaningful cultural change.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing.

Jan 30, • 14:45

Breaking Through Reorg Paralysis

Breaking Through Reorg Paralysis

Kelli and Nolan tackle a listener's frustration with a painfully slow reorg process, diving into the eternal tension between perfect planning and actually running the business. When HR and legal reviews stretch into week four, should you keep waiting for perfection or pull the trigger? Towards the end of the episode, Kelli and Nolan get into brass tacks offering tactical timelines to execute a reorg based on hypothetical examples.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

Jan 28, • 15:46

Smart Hiring with Tom Clayton

Smart Hiring with Tom Clayton

Tom Clayton, COO of Peek, shares his unconventional playbook for building world-class teams. From his data-driven "employee attribute chart" to his rule of "don't be a brand b***h," Tom breaks down how he's scaled companies from 50 to 2000+ employees.He dishes on everything from why he sends champagne to candidates' hotel rooms to why he encourages employees to quit and start their own companies.If you’re listening on podcast platforms, be sure to check out our Substack or YouTube channel to see

Jan 23, • 42:45

When Success Means New Bosses: A Startup Growth Story

When Success Means New Bosses: A Startup Growth Story

Kelli and Nolan unpack the delicate art of layering – that awkward moment when someone gets a new boss – while calling out the pitfalls of secret searches and celebrating the often-forgotten heroes of early startup days. Equal parts tactical advice and therapy session for growing companies.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when

Jan 21, • 21:39

Unlocking HR's Hidden Insights with Siadhal Magos [AI Corner]

Unlocking HR's Hidden Insights with Siadhal Magos [AI Corner]

Think AI is just about robots summarizing your emails? Think again. Metaview co-founder and CEO Siadhal Magos reveals how AI's real impact in an org is making sense of workplace conversations, performance reviews, and all the messy human stuff that HR deals with.Start recognizing the opportunities presented by ‘unstructured data’ to transform HR from subjective guesswork to data-driven decisions, without losing the human touch.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turp

Jan 17, • 20:28

Adapting to Startup Reality and Having More Impact

Adapting to Startup Reality and Having More Impact

Nolan and Kelli talk about the culture shock of moving from corporate behemoths to the startup wild west. They share battle-tested wisdom on surviving the transition - from mastering the art of founder relationships to embracing the (sometimes brutal) transparency demands of startup employees. Along the way, they reveal how corporate luxuries like two-hour gym breaks get replaced by the exhilarating but exhausting reality of building something from scratch.*Email us your questions or topics for

Jan 15, • 16:10

The Art of Not Getting Fired for Not Firing People

The Art of Not Getting Fired for Not Firing People

Kelli and Nolan start with a heartfelt discussion about LA fires before diving into the art of handling CEO mandates for attrition targets. They reveal insider strategies for transforming harsh directives into meaningful performance frameworks, while warning against becoming the dreaded "person of no."*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notifie

Jan 10, • 17:52

The Anti-Org Chart: Why Colin Zima Traded HR for Chaos (and Won)

The Anti-Org Chart: Why Colin Zima Traded HR for Chaos (and Won)

Colin Zima, former Looker exec turned Omni CEO, reveals how he runs a 65-person Series A startup with no HR or G&A team. Learn why he believes in minimal bureaucracy, why founders should do the "dirty work," and what really breaks after a Google acquisition.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publicati

Jan 9, • 43:23

Big Tech Alumni: Help or Hindrance? with Bryan Power

Big Tech Alumni: Help or Hindrance? with Bryan Power

From Square to Nextdoor, Bryan Power reveals why copying Big Tech's playbook might be your biggest mistake.Find out why Square banned hiring from the payments industry while building a payments company. Discover how conventional wisdom about senior talent can become startup kryptonite and why the safe choice isn't always the smart choice.Bryan Power is a veteran Silicon Valley People executive who's shaped talent strategy at tech giants like Google and Yahoo, built Square from 150 employees, and

Jan 2, • 47:40

The Very Best of Heretics 2024

The Very Best of Heretics 2024

Happy New Year from HR Heretics!Together, we've built something extraordinary: a community of forward-thinking HR professionals who dare to question the status quo, welcome straight talk, and thrive on healthy debate.In today's special year-end episode, we're sharing some of our top moments, most controversial takes, and the conversations that simply blew our minds with new approaches to people, hiring, managing, and shaping the culture of high performing teams. Think of this as your ultimate HR

Dec 31, 2024 • 16:51

The Year End Special: Personal L’s, Big Wins, and Why Headcount is Dead

The Year End Special: Personal L’s, Big Wins, and Why Headcount is Dead

It’s been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising i

Dec 20, 2024 • 29:25

Striking at the Heart of the Future of Work | AI Corner with Siadhal Magos on 11x AI

Striking at the Heart of the Future of Work | AI Corner with Siadhal Magos on 11x AI

Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.Discover

Dec 18, 2024 • 29:00

Why Messy is Good and Structure is Overrated

Why Messy is Good and Structure is Overrated

Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://

Dec 13, 2024 • 13:43

Be an Infinite Learner with Chris Yeh

Be an Infinite Learner with Chris Yeh

Chris Yeh – author, venture partner, and co-writer of Blitzscaling (with Reid Hoffman) – shares insights from his multifaceted career as a Silicon Valley insider. Yeh discusses staying relevant in tech, the necessary skill of unlearning, and why traveling with potential partners might be the best way to assess compatibility. Yeh gives our listeners a masterclass in adaptability and authentic leadership.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business p

Dec 12, 2024 • 54:13

Stop Saying You're a Business Partner (And Actually Be One) with Jeff Diana

Stop Saying You're a Business Partner (And Actually Be One) with Jeff Diana

Tired of hearing "HR needs to be more business-focused" without any real direction? In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & N

Dec 6, 2024 • 24:29

C-Suite Budget Scrutiny? with Colleen McCreary

C-Suite Budget Scrutiny? with Colleen McCreary

Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny? Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turp

Dec 3, 2024 • 12:54

The 3AM People Leader: Donald Knight of Warner Brothers Discovery

The 3AM People Leader: Donald Knight of Warner Brothers Discovery

From pioneering parental leave strategies to 3 AM workout sessions, Warner Bros Discovery's SVP of People Donald Knight reveals how vulnerability, authenticity, and physical discipline shape exceptional leadership. Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at htt

Nov 26, 2024 • 49:47

Feedback Isn't a Gift, It's a Workout | Culture Amp CEO Didier Elzinga

Feedback Isn't a Gift, It's a Workout | Culture Amp CEO Didier Elzinga

Didier Elzinga, Culture Amp's CEO, drops bombshell insights about why most leaders get growth wrong, reveals shocking data about manager vs. leader impact, and explains why treating feedback like an all-you-can-eat menu is destroying companies. Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coachin

Nov 21, 2024 • 48:05

Beyond the Red Flags: Managing Leadership Evolution

Beyond the Red Flags: Managing Leadership Evolution

How do you navigate a founding CTO's transition when they're struggling to scale? Kelli and Nolan share hard-won wisdom on avoiding common pitfalls: don't rush to judgment, build trust first, and respect the deep bonds between founders. Instead of plotting replacements, focus on supporting growth - and remember that even the best transitions happen through relationships, not force.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at h

Nov 19, 2024 • 16:55

HR's Legal Blindside: The Litigation Wave

HR's Legal Blindside: The Litigation Wave

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies. In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering pract

Nov 14, 2024 • 28:33

The Myth of the Perfect Candidate

The Myth of the Perfect Candidate

Today Kelli and Nolan tackle a real-world HR career challenge: a candidate who received feedback that while they could handle their current role, the hiring manager was unsure about their ability to scale with company growth.Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of their

Nov 12, 2024 • 14:13

From Department of No to Strategic Partner: Pendo’s CPO on Modern HR

From Department of No to Strategic Partner: Pendo’s CPO on Modern HR

How do you lead product when your CEO is the product visionary? Pendo's Chief Product Officer Trisha Price reveals the delicate dance of setting boundaries with founder-CEOs, the evolution of HR from gatekeeper to strategic partner, and why she uses AI to write letters to her 102-year-old grandmother. A candid conversation about power, trust, and the changing face of tech leadership.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at

Nov 7, 2024 • 44:08

Election Day 2024: Leading Through the Divide

Election Day 2024: Leading Through the Divide

On Election Day 2024, Nolan and Kelli examine how to navigate an increasingly polarized workplace during a contentious election. They discuss the decline of 'presidential' discourse, the impact of social media on political rhetoric, and practical strategies for business leaders managing divided teams. Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrhere

Nov 5, 2024 • 18:22

Beyond Emily in Paris: Navigating French Business Culture and HR Politics with Ciara Lakhani

Beyond Emily in Paris: Navigating French Business Culture and HR Politics with Ciara Lakhani

Former Dashlane HR leader Ciara Lakhani shares her unfiltered journey from New York to Paris tech, debunking myths about French business culture while revealing the art of cross-cultural leadership. From smoke breaks with works councils to earning trust through authenticity, Ciara offers practical wisdom on navigating international business dynamics and building bridges between American and French work cultures. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co For c

Oct 31, 2024 • 33:39

From Empty Suits to Real Leaders

From Empty Suits to Real Leaders

In this segment of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan discuss "empty suit executives" – a term coined by product leader Tyler Hogge, highlighting executives who manage from above but scoff at doing the work themselves.Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sl

Oct 29, 2024 • 14:52

When Breaking Everything Fixes Everything with Jared Fliesler

When Breaking Everything Fixes Everything with Jared Fliesler

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli talks with Silicon Valley prodigy turned seasoned operator and former Google director Jared Fliesler.From revolutionizing feedback systems to challenging the "founder mode" hype, Jared shares raw insights from his journey as Silicon Valley's youngest executive. But that's just the beginning – he also unveils the psychological trap keeping high achievers perpetually unfulfilled (hint: it's not what you think), and shares the counterintuitive secret to genuine sati

Oct 24, 2024 • 49:57

Burnout in the Workplace

Burnout in the Workplace

In this candid episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan dive deep into workplace burnout and share vulnerable insights on maintaining resilience in high-pressure roles.From conquering impostor syndrome to escaping the corporate echo chamber, they offer practical strategies—like daily routines, nature walks, and building authentic relationships—while reminding leaders that it's okay not to have all the answers.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretic

Oct 22, 2024 • 20:28

Silicon Valley's Survival of the Fittest with Peter Walker of Carta

Silicon Valley's Survival of the Fittest with Peter Walker of Carta

Peter Walker, Head of Insights at Carta, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for a round 2 discussion to talk about the hidden currents reshaping the startup world.From the brutal reality of today's hiring landscape to the unexpected reasons top companies avoid IPOs, Walker challenges conventional wisdom, exploring how the "Big Stay" phenomenon and emerging equity models are redefining employee-company relationships. With startling data on fund performance and company shutdowns, this conversa

Oct 17, 2024 • 44:37

Trust No One? The New Realities of Tech Recruiting in 2024

Trust No One? The New Realities of Tech Recruiting in 2024

In a world where AI blurs the line between genuine skill and digital deception, HR professionals face an ethical minefield. As candidates leverage AI to cheat interviews and fake applicants infiltrate tech companies, the very fabric of recruitment is being tested. Kelli and Nolan explore the unsettling convergence of technology and human ambition, challenging us to redefine trust, authenticity, and competence in the modern workplace.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretic

Oct 16, 2024 • 16:36

Andy Price on Building World-Class Teams: Process is Overrated

Andy Price on Building World-Class Teams: Process is Overrated

Seasoned executive recruiter and venture capitalist Andy Price joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for an inside-the-room look at the intricate dance of hiring, retaining, and evolving top-tier talent. Andy has assembled leadership teams for companies like Snowflake, DocuSign, Confluent, Amplitude, and ServiceNow.From the critical role of empathy in leadership transitions to the long-term value of investing in talent development, Price's insights challenge listeners preconcieved notions about

Oct 10, 2024 • 52:59

Rethinking DEI in Tech After Microsoft's Team Dissolution

Rethinking DEI in Tech After Microsoft's Team Dissolution

As tech giants like Microsoft dismantle DEI teams, this segment probes the industry's true commitment to diversity. Are we witnessing the death of corporate DEI or its evolution? Kelli and Nolan dissect the disconnect between lofty promises and marginal progress, questioning whether current approaches are effective, and challenge listeners to envision a "Chapter Two" for DEI—one that prioritizes authentic inclusion over mere metrics.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretic

Oct 9, 2024 • 16:32

HashiCorp's CPO Christine Centa on Equity, Remote Work & AI

HashiCorp's CPO Christine Centa on Equity, Remote Work & AI

In this episode of HR Heretics, dive into the world of HashiCorp's HR innovation with Christine Centa, as she unveils the challenges of scaling a remote-first culture, navigating post-IPO transitions, and embracing AI in recruiting. Discover with Kelli, Nolan and Christine how transparency, data-driven decisions, and a willingness to swear occasionally are reshaping modern tech workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from

Oct 3, 2024 • 44:23

When CEOs Bare Their Souls in 36 Pages with Colleen McCreary

When CEOs Bare Their Souls in 36 Pages with Colleen McCreary

This HR Heretics segment dives headfirst into the controversy surrounding Mr. Beast's leaked 36-page employee manual.Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as as they unpack this viral document that's part survival guide, part corporate manifesto, with a dash of unapologetic ambition. Is it a brilliantly authentic approach to leadership or a recipe for workplace burnout?*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast

Oct 1, 2024 • 22:09

Realtalk: Feedback

Realtalk: Feedback

This episode of HR Heretics dives into the treacherous waters of giving feedback to friends without capsizing relationships.Candid feedback or comfortable silence? Kelli and Nolan dissect the art of critiquing colleagues, challenging listeners to reconsider their approach to workplace honesty. Discover why your ego might be your own worst enemy, and learn how to transform awkward conversations into opportunities for growth.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpenti

Sep 26, 2024 • 18:19

Amazon's Return To Office Policy

Amazon's Return To Office Policy

Amazon CEO Andy Jassy announces return to office policy, sparking debate on workplace culture and employee expectations in tech industry.Will Amazon's RTO policy lead to increased employee turnover and a decline in morale? Listen as Kelli and Nolan explore the implications of these changes on workplace culture, employee expectations, and the broader business landscape.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--Support

Sep 24, 2024 • 16:02

Workplace Romance Power Dynamics

Workplace Romance Power Dynamics

Thinking of swiping right on a colleague? Find out with Kelli and Nolan if workplace romance is worth the potential awkward elevator rides and why mixing power and passion is a recipe for corporate disaster.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate for

Sep 19, 2024 • 21:54

The First Team Trap: Avoiding Toxicity

The First Team Trap: Avoiding Toxicity

You've got your daily team, the folks you work with every day, but then there's the executive squad. Patrick Lencioni’s "Five Dysfunctions of a Team" says that should be your true loyalty, but how does that translate into practice? Nolan and Kelli talk about navigating those tricky waters and avoiding toxic team vibes when the big boss throws down some tough choices.Explore how HR pros can keep things from blowing up when the executive team calls the shots. *Email us your questions or topics for

Sep 17, 2024 • 18:53

Exec, Manager, Friend: CPO Trifecta

Exec, Manager, Friend: CPO Trifecta

Is context switching hurting your HR productivity? Kelli and Nolan talk about how leaders effectively navigate multiple roles and explore practical techniques for maximizing productivity in HR to build an adaptable team.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop a

Sep 12, 2024 • 18:19

Promotions on Ice: Are you stuck?

Promotions on Ice: Are you stuck?

US white-collar promotions are down 24% in Q1 2024, with a near 50% drop since 2022. What does this mean for employees and the job market?Kelli and Nolan discuss causes, including pandemic effects and company restructuring, and talk about strategies for retention and career growth in a restructured, doer-focused workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just

Sep 10, 2024 • 17:19

Equity: Cash or Carrot? With Guissu Baier of General Catalyst

Equity: Cash or Carrot? With Guissu Baier of General Catalyst

Guissu Baier, a talent expert at General Catalyst who navigated the treacherous waters of startup equity compensation at Instacart, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich challenging conventional wisdom about refresh grants, and revealing that most companies lack a clear strategy.Is it time to ditch the old-school "wait and see" approach and embrace a more performance-driven model?Listen to Guissu, Kelli and Nolan as they offer insights into how to bridge the gap and foster collaboration between

Sep 6, 2024 • 48:10

Everyone's Talking About Founder Mode

Everyone's Talking About Founder Mode

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk about ‘Founder Mode’ a concept coined by YC founder Paul Graham in a recent essay — based on a talk by Brian Chesky, founder of Airbnb. They discuss how founders feel gaslit by advice to delegate without micromanaging, and that the right approach IS a ruthlessly hands-on approach. The hosts explore the tension founders face between maintaining control and trusting hires, emphasizing the need for empathy. This is a sign that the paradigm is shifting, an

Sep 5, 2024 • 21:37

DEI: Pushback or Paradigm Shift? With Vijay Pendakur

DEI: Pushback or Paradigm Shift? With Vijay Pendakur

Dr. Vijay Pendakur, DEI expert, author, and principal and founder of Vijay Pendakur Consulting, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich to discuss the current pushback against DEI, the future of the movement, and how companies can find success in a shifting landscape. How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value? Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and ex

Aug 29, 2024 • 58:56

When Is It Time to Quit Your Job?

When Is It Time to Quit Your Job?

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich tackle knowing when it's time to leave a job -- considering factors such as energy levels, learning opportunities, and impact. They cover the art of giving notice, protecting your financial interests, and nurturing professional connections when moving to a new opportunity.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours t

Aug 27, 2024 • 23:21

Reinventing HR at Garner with Valentina Gissin

Reinventing HR at Garner with Valentina Gissin

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church sits down with Valentina Gissin, former Head of Talent at Bridgewater and current Chief People Officer at Garner. Valentina shares the lasting lessons and people practices from working under Ray Dalio at Bridgewater, Garner's unique approach to the interview process, and her approach to hybrid work, manager training, L&D, and performance reviews. Valentina offers an absolute masterclass in innovating hiring and people strategies.*Email us your questio

Aug 22, 2024 • 46:53

How Back Channels Really Shape Hiring Decisions

How Back Channels Really Shape Hiring Decisions

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about "back channels" in the hiring process.They dive deep into this controversial practice and how back channels can impact candidate selection, emphasizing the need for a thoughtful, mature approach that considers the full context of a candidate's experience and potential.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just

Aug 20, 2024 • 23:06

The Long Game of DEI: A Conversation with Joelle Emerson

The Long Game of DEI: A Conversation with Joelle Emerson

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli are joined by Joelle Emerson, CEO of Paradigm, to discuss why diversity numbers aren't improving quickly in companies and the challenges in measuring DEI progress.This episode explores the complexities of measuring impact, discusses the trade-offs of long-term strategies, and offers insights for navigating the current backlash.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Supp

Aug 15, 2024 • 50:38

The Vibe Shift in Tech

The Vibe Shift in Tech

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss the dramatic shift in the tech industry's work culture. They explore how the once-glamorous perception of tech jobs, filled with lavish perks and easy success, has given way to a more challenging reality.While this transition is painful, it may ultimately lead to a healthier, more sustainable tech ecosystem with professionals who are truly committed to building the future.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpent

Aug 13, 2024 • 15:51

So the NYTimes says everyone hates HR, now what?

So the NYTimes says everyone hates HR, now what?

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss The New York Times article making waves this past week: "So Human Resources Making You Miserable". Nolan and Kelli dissect the article's claims, share their own experiences and what they're hearing from other leaders, and discuss the disconnect between HR and the rest of the org.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Metaview is the AI assist

Aug 8, 2024 • 37:51

Should Your Org do Amazon’s Bar Raiser Interviews?

Should Your Org do Amazon’s Bar Raiser Interviews?

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich weigh in on a listener's question (shoutout Karissa!) about implementing 'bar raiser' interview programs at her Series D company. Are they worth the hype, or just an HR trend? Kelli and Nolan dig in.You too can email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes th

Aug 6, 2024 • 20:57

AI-Powered Hiring, Really... with Siadhal Magos of Metaview

AI-Powered Hiring, Really... with Siadhal Magos of Metaview

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos for his insight into how AI is transforming recruiting -- and creating unexpected leverage for teams that know how to use it.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights t

Aug 1, 2024 • 44:36

How to Show Your Work

How to Show Your Work

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss how HR teams can break out from behind the curtain and be a proactive force for good within the organization.HR can be more than just a reactive function. Learn how HR teams can demonstrate their real impact on the business as Kelli and Nolan share tips for increasing visibility and showcasing your team's value. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpe

Jul 30, 2024 • 17:06

The AI Gold Rush and Talent Dynamics with Chris Vasquez of Quantum Talent

The AI Gold Rush and Talent Dynamics with Chris Vasquez of Quantum Talent

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Chris Vasquez, Investor and Founder of Quantum Talent, and discuss the insane AI talent market, executive hiring, and the future of work in a world where AI is rapidly changing everything.Hear their insights on the dynamic AI talent market covering the evolution of tech trends, challenges in hiring, the changing dynamics of diversity and merit, and the race for top talent.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &

Jul 25, 2024 • 53:45

PIPs and Forks

PIPs and Forks

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss the reality of PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans). Are PIPs genuine efforts to help employees or a company CYA tactic? Kelli and Nolan explore the misuse of PIPs, arguing that they should be a last resort, not the first step in addressing performance issues. Listen to their insights as they discuss PIP alternatives, like the "fork approach," focusing on open communication and employee empowerment over PIPs.*Email us your

Jul 23, 2024 • 17:26

Remote Work, Hiring Trends, and the Value of a College Diploma with Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire

Remote Work, Hiring Trends, and the Value of a College Diploma with Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire.How is the tech talent landscape evolving, and what are the challenges and opportunities that come with these changes? Listen as Heather shares insights from their State of Talent report, uncovering shifts in location trends, Gen Z job hopping, and the truth about AI's impact on hiring. Plus, hear why "remote ready" is more important than ever and why Heather calls out the relia

Jul 18, 2024 • 55:47

Meta Cuts VP Roles

Meta Cuts VP Roles

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss Meta's latest round of VP cuts which raises questions about the future of big tech jobs and the impact of efficiency initiatives on employees.Is Meta's large number of VPs hindering efficiency? Listen as Kelli and Nolan discuss the impact of bloated management structures in big tech, the future of leadership and management, and their insights on how to prepare for a changing job market.*Email us your questions or topics for

Jul 16, 2024 • 16:44

Talking Executive Search 2.0 with Nick Cromydas of Hunt Club: Equity, Severance, and Overvaluation

Talking Executive Search 2.0 with Nick Cromydas of Hunt Club: Equity, Severance, and Overvaluation

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nick and Kelli sit down with Nick Cromydas, CEO of Hunt Club, and discuss the executive search evolution, leveraging technology, and AI. His company Hunt Club uses a network of thousands of leaders to find the perfect candidate, revolutionizing the traditional search firm model. Nick, Kelli, and Nolan discuss common negotiation points and terms surrounding executive compensation, equity, and the importance of transparency and feedback in hiring processes.*Email us

Jul 11, 2024 • 52:57

Is MEI the Anti DEI? with Colleen McCreary and David Hanrahan

Is MEI the Anti DEI? with Colleen McCreary and David Hanrahan

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan is joined by regular guests/friends of the pod Colleen McCreary (Ribbit Capital) and David Hanrahan (CPO, Flare) to unpack Alexandr Wang’s MEI stance at Scale AI, the growing backlash against DEI initiatives, and a discussion of how businesses can move forward productively from this debate.The conversation also touches on the new culture deck from Netflix! If you haven’t listened to HR Heretics episode #1 where we interviewed Patti McCord, architect of the f

Jul 9, 2024 • 37:05

How (and why!) to take time off

How (and why!) to take time off

In this 4th of July special episode of HR Heretics, hosts Kelli and Nolan discuss the hurdles of taking vacations, particularly in the context of modern HR practices. They explore the challenges and strategies of making use of unlimited PTO, the importance of setting regular boundaries for mental health, and the importance of planning ahead for time off. They also discuss the importance of training your colleagues to enforce your vacation, deleting Slack off your phone, and recognizing false urg

Jul 3, 2024 • 18:05

From CPO to CEO: Michelle Wagner Tells All

From CPO to CEO: Michelle Wagner Tells All

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit with Michelle Wagner as she shares her journey from Chief People Officer at AOL and Evernote to becoming the CEO of MindStrong, a healthech company.Michelle, who may be “N of 1” in the CPO to CEO company trajectory, discusses her early career, the challenges she faced in different leadership roles, and the strategic decisions she made during her tenure as CEO of MindStrong.This candid conversation offers valuable insights for HR professionals a

Jul 2, 2024 • 1:03:45

Navigating the Real Power Structures at Your Company

Navigating the Real Power Structures at Your Company

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Andrew Bartlow, a multi time VP of HR and co-founder of People Leader Accelerator. Andrew shares his extensive career from startups to Fortune 100 companies, the distinct challenges at each company stage across VC-backed startups and public companies, and the danger of being relegated to your HR island.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Here

Jun 27, 2024 • 1:01:51

Scale AI's "MEI" Hiring Announcement with Richard Ni, the former Head of People

Scale AI's "MEI" Hiring Announcement with Richard Ni, the former Head of People

Scale AI's CEO sparks debate with "MEI" - is meritocracy a threat to diversity?Kelli and Nolan, together with Richard Ni, Scale AI’s former Head of People, weigh in on the implications of this new hiring policy. Together, they discuss the role of meritocracy and company culture and offer actionable insights for HR professionals for talent acquisition and building a diverse workforce.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpe

Jun 25, 2024 • 30:04

Navigating Media, LinkedIn, and the HR Echo Chamber with Lars Schmidt

Navigating Media, LinkedIn, and the HR Echo Chamber with Lars Schmidt

Nolan and Kelli sit down with Lars Schmidt, Redefining Work podcaster, author, world of work content creator, and founder of Amplify Talent. Lars shares his journey from leading talent at NPR to establishing his voice as a creator, to founding his own advisory firm. Lars, Kelli and Nolan discuss the motivations for becoming a content creator, challenges in building a brand and community, and why in the age of AI HR practitioners need to be more selfish.*Email us your questions or topics for Kell

Jun 21, 2024 • 55:07

Rippling vs. Competitors: The Ex-Employee Dilemma

Rippling vs. Competitors: The Ex-Employee Dilemma

In this episode of HR Heretics, Rippling is banning ex-employees who work at competitors from participating in a secondary stock offering. Is this ethical or a smart business move? Kelli and Nolan discuss the pros and cons of this controversial HR policy.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive

Jun 14, 2024 • 14:54

Pendo CEO Todd Olson on Co-Founder Conflict, Hiring Slow, and Pushing Limits at a Software Unicorn

Pendo CEO Todd Olson on Co-Founder Conflict, Hiring Slow, and Pushing Limits at a Software Unicorn

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan engage in a heartfelt discussion with Todd Olson, CEO and founder of Pendo.Todd shares his personal and professional journey, from his early days as a developer to his current role as CEO. He provides deep insights into leadership, his unique hiring process, and why he believes HR is essential to business success where human connection and vulnerability are prioritized.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR

Jun 13, 2024 • 53:58

The Future of Management

The Future of Management

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli explore the rising trend of replacing managers with coaches, examining the pros and cons of this model and its potential impact on employee development.They also discuss the practicalities of implementing a coach-based management model, including the role of functional expertise and the need for rapid onboarding of coaches.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover

Jun 11, 2024 • 14:59

How Big Should Your Org Grow?

How Big Should Your Org Grow?

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church welcome Michelle Delcambre, an operating partner at Felicis (and formerly of Stripe & Databricks), to discuss company growth trajectories, and strategic HR practices around talent, comp, and exits. Michelle shares the development of Felicis’ ‘Benchmark Your Org' tool — which you can access here — it’s a free platform utilizing data from 15,000 companies, updated monthly, to help founders benchmark organizational growth. This conver

Jun 6, 2024 • 49:31

Toxic Managers

Toxic Managers

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dive into the devastating impact of toxic managers, featuring real stories of burnout, mental health struggles, and even suicide. They delve into the misconduct of a Baidu executive who displayed horrific behavior towards her employees and the extreme pressures leading to suicides among investment bankers, highlighted by a tragic case at Bank of America. From recognizing the signs of toxic management to building a strong support network, Kelli and

Jun 4, 2024 • 17:02

The Future of Tech Operators with Casey Woo, Founder of Operators Guild

The Future of Tech Operators with Casey Woo, Founder of Operators Guild

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Casey Woo, a former public market investor turned 7x high-growth executive (including WeWork). He is now the founder of Operations Guild and General Partner at FOG Ventures. Casey shares eye-opening experiences from his time at WeWork and describes working with Adam Neumann, and the dynamics of rapid business scaling. They also highlight the impact of AI on business operations, the rise of the business operator, and discuss what skill

May 31, 2024 • 49:33

The Big Stay

The Big Stay

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli discuss an article from Business Insider about the ongoing white-collar recession, particularly affecting those earning over $100,000 a year. They discuss significant changes in the tech job market, including the influence of AI, global competition, and the shift from managerial roles to more individual contributor positions. The episode concludes with insights into personal fulfillment versus financial stability in career choices.Vanguard data rev

May 29, 2024 • 16:46

A Deep Dive Into Coaching as a Career with Nathan Tanner, author of The Unconquerable Leader

A Deep Dive Into Coaching as a Career with Nathan Tanner, author of The Unconquerable Leader

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Nathan Tanner, an executive coach, author of The Unconquerable Leader, and former HR leader at DoorDash, Neighbor, and LinkedIn. Nathan demystifies the black box of coaching as a career path for people leaders, getting into the nitty-gritty of setting up the business, getting clients, and the economics of coaching. They also discuss the fine line between the empathy required of an HR leader, an executive coach, and a therapist.HR Here

May 23, 2024 • 44:14

What's the Deal at OpenAI?

What's the Deal at OpenAI?

Nolan Church breaks down what is happening over at OpenAI and what we know about three developing stories involving exec departures, equity, and transparency. Kelli is on vacation this week. He touches on:* The departure of Ilya Sutskever, co-founder and chief scientist, along with Jan Lieke* The journalistic investigation by Vox's Kelsey Piper, who broke the story of OpenAI's practice of requiring departing employees to sign life-long non-disclosure and non-disparagement agreements, threatening

May 21, 2024 • 11:03

$3B Remote CEO on Killing the Return to Office

$3B Remote CEO on Killing the Return to Office

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli have an honest and transparent discussion with CEO and founder of Remote Job van der Voort (also the former VP of Product at GitLab) on the nuances of running an international remote company. Job strongly emphasises how trying to replicate the office environment in a remote setting doesn’t work and how giving small teams extreme autonomy with focus on outcome-based-management far outweighs surveillance and micro management. Kelli, Nolan and Job chat about early c

May 16, 2024 • 51:49

Career Decisions Round 2 with Janelle Lopez

Career Decisions Round 2 with Janelle Lopez

In today's segment, Kelli welcomes back Janelle Lopez, discussing her recent career decision to take a second-in-command role at Coursera over the top Chief People Officer position elsewhere. She gives us an honest look into her decision-making, her networking efforts (75 meetings!), and how to assess a company for fit.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whateve

May 14, 2024 • 14:44

Balancing Humanity and Numbers: A Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch

Balancing Humanity and Numbers: A Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli chat humanity in leadership with Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch (now part of Amazon). Michelle Weaver has 25 years experience including Hired (with Kelli), StitchFix, Axiom, Gap, Inc. and EA.Michelle emphasises the importance of a human-first leadership approach and that growth and learning can come from the projects you work on, not just promotions. The team all agree that building a strong relationship with the CFO builds a strong business foundation and knowin

May 9, 2024 • 48:16

Do Non-Competes Harm Tech & AI Progress?

Do Non-Competes Harm Tech & AI Progress?

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the recent FTC ruling to ban non-compete agreements nationwide in the US, the broader implications of the ruling for employers and employees, and the future of AI and tech post-ban.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal

May 7, 2024 • 12:16

Getting to the Bottom of Skill Shortages, Burnout & Engagement: Kristy McCann Flynn, SkillCycle CEO

Getting to the Bottom of Skill Shortages, Burnout & Engagement: Kristy McCann Flynn, SkillCycle CEO

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Kristy McCann Flynn, a seasoned HR professional with 25 years of experience, who shares her journey from working in traditional HR roles to founding SkillCycle, a company aimed at revolutionizing talent development and performance management.The lively debate covers the evolving role of HR,  why HR software purchasing power might be changing, why  HR practitioners are doing it wrong if the 50% of their time is spent hearing staff conc

May 3, 2024 • 50:27

Politics in the Workplace is Just Distracting

Politics in the Workplace is Just Distracting

In today's segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss Google firing employees who barricaded themselves in the CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Kurian's office for nine hours, to protest Google providing cloud computing services to the Israeli Ministry of Defense. Google CEO swiftly released a 'No Politics in the Workplace' message. The discussion explores the broader implications of protesting in the workplace, raises questions about protests and explores alternative ways to voice dissent without disruption.HR

May 2, 2024 • 14:19

The Architect of the Paypal Mafia: Peterson Conway

The Architect of the Paypal Mafia: Peterson Conway

This week Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Peterson Conway, headhunter, investor, and advisor who shares insights from his epic career working closely with Silicon Valley greats like Peter Thiel, Kevin Hartz, Keith Rabois, and Joe Lonsdale. Conway has assembled talent for the founding/early teams of Xoom, Palantir, Founders Fund, and 8VCStrap in for some crazy stories. Conway's journey highlights the significance of curiosity, optimism, and unconventional hiring practices in Silico

Apr 26, 2024 • 51:15

Shopify's Zero Sum Mastery Program

Shopify's Zero Sum Mastery Program

In this segment , Nolan and Kelli discuss new information about Shopify's Mastery Program. Employees are assigned a mastery score, and if their score does not increase, they do not receive a raise. They cover the implications of this new approach, comparing it to previous systems used by other companies which also relied on ratings and algorithms to determine merit increases, and discuss the concept of creating a zero-sum game in the workplace. While not exactly new, internal competition is fron

Apr 23, 2024 • 13:20

Leadership Development: Can We Keep Up With AI?: A Conversation with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist at 15five

Leadership Development: Can We Keep Up With AI?: A Conversation with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist at 15five

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss the audacious quest to change the HR market with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist of 15Five.The team discuss the new reality of strategic HR business outcomes and the importance of developing and nurturing high-performance cultures and building great leaders, with the critical necessity of upskilling leadership development fast to adapt to new trends such as the addition of AI which will change the face of how we know HR today.Adam also advocates for having c

Apr 18, 2024 • 46:43

No Makeup, No Offer?

No Makeup, No Offer?

HR Heretics bestie Colleen McCreary joins Kelli Dragovich for today’s segment to discuss a recent viral post about a VP People candidate who was denied a job because she didn’t wear makeup. Colleen and Kelli discuss the expectations and norms about appearance in the workplace and the nuances of providing helpful feedback to candidates.—HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe at hrheretics.substack.com—SPONSOR: This episode is brou

Apr 16, 2024 • 16:11

Lean Mindset, Business Impact and the New Era of HR: Jeff Diana, former CPO of Calendly

Lean Mindset, Business Impact and the New Era of HR: Jeff Diana, former CPO of Calendly

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss “happiness police” overkill with Jeff Diana, former Chief People Officer of Calendly and Atlassian.They talk about the importance of being clear on who you are as a business to avoid massive swings and over-rotations in current HR programs. Jeff believes it’s driving shareholder value that creates employment and that HR pros need to think more like investors and shareholders with focus on business impact rather than focusing on employee satisfaction alone

Apr 11, 2024 • 50:02

Pedigree is Overrated. McKinsey is Paying Employees to Quit

Pedigree is Overrated. McKinsey is Paying Employees to Quit

Kelli and Nolan discuss the news out of McKinsey this past week: generous packages for employees to opt out of their workforce. Is this a sign that there are no more golden tickets? Kelli and Nolan cover what this move says not only about McKinsey but about pedigreed qualifications more broadly. They also identify the key skillsets for this economy and the single most important thing you can do to make yourself recession-proof.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR:Attio is the next ge

Apr 9, 2024 • 14:19

The State of Startups in 2023 and 2024: A Conversation with Peter Walker of Carta

The State of Startups in 2023 and 2024: A Conversation with Peter Walker of Carta

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli chat all things “data from Carta” with Peter Walker, Head of Insights and Data Storytelling at Carta.They discuss Carta’s comprehensive report on startup compensation trends in H2 of 2023 influencing the flow of “dry powder” and the alarming increase in startup shutdowns. Peter proves VC’s will have less leeway in 2024 to throw good money after bad forecasting an even tougher year ahead.The team also discuss honesty in HR around equity structures,

Apr 4, 2024 • 44:48

Remote vs. In-Person

Remote vs. In-Person

Kelli and Nolan tackle the ongoing discussion around remote versus in-person work environments. They talk about the tradeoffs based on where you’re at in your career, the importance of questioning work environment structures, and encouraging listeners to consider what work environment aligns best with their current life phase.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.coSPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the un

Apr 2, 2024 • 13:25

From MIT to HR Leader: A Conversation with Richard Ni, former CPO of Scale AI

From MIT to HR Leader: A Conversation with Richard Ni, former CPO of Scale AI

In this episode, Richard Ni joins Nolan and Kelli to discuss diving head first into a leadership role at Scale AI, a Series E AI startup that supplies data for AI models last valued at $7.3B.From software engineer turned Head of People, Richard talks about his experience heading into a role with zero experience but with an aptitude for people where he needed to be honest with himself about his limitations and how this became pivotal in his learning. He also talks about the importance of building

Mar 28, 2024 • 49:39

How to Be Layoff-Proof

How to Be Layoff-Proof

In this segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about how to be recession-proof and share tactical advice on network-building for a resilient career.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN No

Mar 26, 2024 • 17:37

Building Legendary Teams: Trust, Transition, and Quality with JR Rettig of Pendo

Building Legendary Teams: Trust, Transition, and Quality with JR Rettig of Pendo

In this episode Nolan and Kelli investigate the “recruiting is like art and science” analogy with the Chief People Officer at Pendo, JR Rettig. JR digs into the decisions that led her to the CPO seat, working closely with Kelli. JR also covers the needs for businesses to budget for leaving C-Suite leaders and succession planning, the advantages of a hybrid internal and external recruiting method for execs, and how to maintain a high bar in talent acquisition.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpent

Mar 21, 2024 • 57:34

The Promotion Problem

The Promotion Problem

This segment is all about getting promoted while playing the game of corporate politics, maintaining great relationships, and executing well in your role. In the second half, Kelli and Nolan discuss whether you can get promoted too fast.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com--SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startu

Mar 19, 2024 • 17:12

 The Freedom to Fail and Dispassionate Assessment with A.J. Thomas of X, Google's Moonshot Factory

The Freedom to Fail and Dispassionate Assessment with A.J. Thomas of X, Google's Moonshot Factory

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli host A.J. Thomas of X, the moonshot factory from Alphabet. A.J for a discussion about failure, innovation, and embracing adversity. They also discuss the importance of scenario planning and asking all the questions upfront as a baseline for business optimization.While at X, A.J. embraces the notion that professional breakthrough requires personal breakthrough and her perspective on the relentless pursuit of truth, dispassionate assessment, and the power of curios

Mar 14, 2024 • 53:38

We Don't Talk About Board Dynamics Enough

We Don't Talk About Board Dynamics Enough

This segment delves into the intricacies of board member dynamics, specifically focusing on the removal of board members. Highlighted by the situation involving Michael Moritz's removal from Klarna's board, the discussion covers the complexities and nuances of board construction, including the distinction between preferred and independent board members, contract terms, and the impact of diversity.We need to demystify board operations — how they work, voting dynamics, and what they do! Open call

Mar 12, 2024 • 13:54

Emergency Segment: Chamath Wants to Abolish HR?

Emergency Segment: Chamath Wants to Abolish HR?

Do companies need HR? Kelli and Nolan discuss a recent episode of All In (the #1 Business podcast in the world) which championed a utopian vision of dismantling HR inside companies, a conversation ignited by Sequoia’s Shaun Maguire exposing Google’s promotion policies. Kelli and Nolan discuss how we even got to this point of frustration, what’s worth decentralizing, and what would fall apart without HR. What do you think?Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them

Mar 8, 2024 • 16:05

Is Shopify's "~Mastery" Blowing Up Levels?

Is Shopify's "~Mastery" Blowing Up Levels?

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discusses Shopify's recent announcement of their ‘~Mastery’ dual track system, rewarding management and craftspeople equally.Kelli and Nolan also delve into topics such job leveling, advancement, and performance reviews and share personal stories from DoorDash and Yahoo.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com--SPONSOR:This episode is brought to you by Attio, the next generation of CRM. I

Mar 5, 2024 • 15:55

Building Radically Better Businesses with DHH of 37signals and Basecamp

Building Radically Better Businesses with DHH of 37signals and Basecamp

In this episode, Kelli and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary go from 0 to 100 with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-founder of 37signals (Basecamp). The discussion covers 37signals’ radical policies and the “no politics at work” policy that got them canceled on Twitter after corporate America “went woke”. They also discuss the no managers rule that embraces more efficiency in a limited 40 hour work week and why overworking is a dated mindset. David also talks

Feb 29, 2024 • 1:08:03

Segment: Bolt Slashes Valuation 97% and Screws Over Employees

Segment: Bolt Slashes Valuation 97% and Screws Over Employees

This segment is sparked by the situation at Bolt, where employees who participated in an employee loan program were impacted by the company's valuation which was slashed by 97%. Kelli and Nolan discuss the post termination exercising window, the need for employees to be better educated about equity, and share personal experiences with options. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe hrheretics.substack.comSPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powe

Feb 27, 2024 • 15:59

L.J. Brock, CPO of Coinbase Is Unflinching in the Face of the HR Status Quo

L.J. Brock, CPO of Coinbase Is Unflinching in the Face of the HR Status Quo

We are so excited to bring you Kelli and Nolan’s interview with L.J. Brock, the CPO of Coinbase – a trailblazing company that has come under scrutiny in the press for their ‘no politics at work’ stance and talent density policies. L.J discusses how Coinbase continues to innovate to drive the company mission, how they ensure the company hiring standards stay at the highest level, how he works with Coinbase’s CEO Brian Armstrong to conceive of new policies, and how Coinbase sees career development

Feb 22, 2024 • 1:00:44

Elizabeth Patterson of Sapphire Ventures on How to Get Noticed by a VC Talent Partner

Elizabeth Patterson of Sapphire Ventures on How to Get Noticed by a VC Talent Partner

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church talk with Elizabeth Patterson, Partner (People & Talent) at Sapphire Ventures. The conversation is all about how to find the best CPO roles, how VC talent partners actually work, and what it's like engaging with portfolio companies and execs. Lots of insider info. Elizabeth manages Sapphire Venture’s human capital network, including the Sapphire Fellows program.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.coThis

Feb 20, 2024 • 50:07

What’s Next For DEI: A Conversation with Mita Mallick of Carta

What’s Next For DEI: A Conversation with Mita Mallick of Carta

In this episode, Nolan and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary delve into diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) with Mita Mallick of Carta. Mita is the Head of Inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta and the author of Reimagine Inclusion. They discuss the benefits of cross-cultural marketing, how DEI roles aren't set up for success in tech companies, inclusion as a business driver, and successful career succession planning.Want more Colleen? Check out her DEI Roundtable episode here (https://h

Feb 15, 2024 • 52:34

On The Record: New Norms for Layoffs in 2024

On The Record: New Norms for Layoffs in 2024

This segment is sparked by a recent viral video of a layoff recorded by an employee. Kelli and Nolan cover the recent layoffs at Google and Cloudflare, how treatment of an employee during the layoff impacts both the employee and employer, and how companies should handle parting ways with an employee in 2024. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: https://hrheretics.substack.com/.Timestamps:(00:00) Special segment alert(00:17) January is the biggest month in

Feb 13, 2024 • 12:42

Inside M&As, Redesigning Comp, and a Public Company's CPO HR Tool Kit with Brigette McInnis-Day of UIPath

Inside M&As, Redesigning Comp, and a Public Company's CPO HR Tool Kit with Brigette McInnis-Day of UIPath

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Brigette McInnis-Day, CPO of UIPath — a people leader at the biggest company we’ve had repped on the podcast to date.Timestamps and the transcript of our episode with Brigette are below. We love feedback! Subscribe to our substack to get VIDEO episodes in your inbox. You can also always listen to the podcast on Apple & Spotify.----We highly recommend you subscribe to HR Brew: a free daily newsletter for people leaders and operators h

Feb 9, 2024 • 48:53

Reversing Roles: Number 1 or Number 2 Seat?

Reversing Roles: Number 1 or Number 2 Seat?

This segment is dedicated to covering what rising mid-career HR professionals really want to know. Janelle Lopez, an incredible HR professional, is brought in to interview us about her next move. Janelle, who worked at Yahoo and SurveyMonkey, has 12 years of transformative experiences under her belt, yet finds herself faced with biases and apprehensions from CEOs and founders reluctant to hire a 'number two'. Kelli and Nolan offer advice about taking control of the narrative during the hiring pr

Feb 6, 2024 • 19:27

The Interview Process is Fundamentally Broken: Linear's Move to Work Trials

The Interview Process is Fundamentally Broken: Linear's Move to Work Trials

The only reason we do interviews is because we’ve done them in the past. Hear Nolan and Kelli discuss Linear’s recent announcement that they’re moving from interviews to work trials for all candidates (https://twitter.com/linear/status/1735019663875264958)Also discussed is Nolan’s experience with a failed interview policy from his time at Google.Let us know what you think by sending us a message on LinkedIn, sharing your thoughts in the comments. Our substack is new and we’re excited about this

Jan 30, 2024 • 14:14

Katelin Holloway Thinks More HR People Need a VC Checkbook

Katelin Holloway Thinks More HR People Need a VC Checkbook

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Katelin Holloway, founding partner at VC firm 776 which she started with Alexis Ohanian. Holloway, the former VP of People at Reddit, shares insights from her experience both in HR and breaking into venture. Katelin shares a ton of practical advice - and tactics - for HR leaders who want to start investing or break into VC, explaining how to develop a founder-focussed approach, the benefits of advising relationships, and the need to

Jan 26, 2024 • 59:32

Andreessen Horowitz's Matt Oberhardt on Backchannels, MOC Interviews, and Exec Recruiting in 2024

Andreessen Horowitz's Matt Oberhardt on Backchannels, MOC Interviews, and Exec Recruiting in 2024

In this episode of HR Heretics, we have a conversation with Matt Oberhardt, partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), about the complexities of recruiting executives and finding talent. Matt explains the importance of precision in referencing and maintaining professionalism in recruitment processes. We also cover specific advice for founders, the transition of veterans into start-ups, and dealing with the 2024 macro and job market. Find the best fractional execs at Continuum: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9

Jan 18, 2024 • 52:58

SymphonyAI's Jen Trzepacz on Comp Transparency, Yahoo's Early Days, and the Real Deal on CPO-CEO Relationships

SymphonyAI's Jen Trzepacz on Comp Transparency, Yahoo's Early Days, and the Real Deal on CPO-CEO Relationships

Jen Trzepacz, or JT as she's widely known, is a Silicon Valley vet (Yahoo, EA, Salesforce, Living Social) and currently the CPO of SymphonyAI. JT joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to talk about how HR needs to be expertly aligned with the business bottom line, how to do transparency around compensation well, how to recruit the best talent, navigating complicated CEO relationships, and takes us on a trip down memory lane for her biggest F-ups.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast net

Jan 11, 2024 • 59:41

Getting Honest About DEI in 2024: A Conversation with Colleen McCreary and David Hanrahan

Getting Honest About DEI in 2024: A Conversation with Colleen McCreary and David Hanrahan

Friends of the podcast and experienced CPOs Colleen McCreary (CreditKarma, Zynga, Twilio, EA) and David Hanrahan (Flare, formerly EventBrite, Zendesk) join hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for this roundtable discussion of where the puck is going for DEI in 2024. They offer their takes on the progress made over the years, the current camps in this debate propelled by the recent capitol hill hearings and Harvard controversy, and the necessity of founders and companies to better understand t

Jan 8, 2024 • 52:17

The Enigmatic Q Hamirani on Turnarounds, AI, and the CPO Grind

The Enigmatic Q Hamirani on Turnarounds, AI, and the CPO Grind

Q Hamirani, the Chief People Officer at Paper, joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss navigating the CPO seat under immense pressure, the real deal behind Airbnb's remote work policy, how design thinking helps solve people problems, and how the people function should not be left behind by the AI revolution. They also touch on great stories and tactical insights from Q's time as AirBnB s and his current CPO role at edtech company Paper (https://paper.co/).Learn more about Q's AI commun

Jan 4, 2024 • 59:59

A Deep Dive on Firing Executives

A Deep Dive on Firing Executives

At scaling companies. navigating parting ways with an executive requires finesse, strategic insights, and insider experience. Run The Numbers podcast invited Kelli and Nolan to break down every facet, lever, and little known facts behind successfully exiting execs. Its a great conversation - Kelli and Nolan have seen it all and break down termination packages, terms like double trigger and garden leave, exec pay parity, and how to fire CEOs. Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever

Dec 28, 2023 • 51:10

VC Dan Portillo, Founder/GP of TheGP on Being the Godfather of Talent Partners, Starting His Own Fund, and Experimentation

VC Dan Portillo, Founder/GP of TheGP on Being the Godfather of Talent Partners, Starting His Own Fund, and Experimentation

Dan Portillo is the founder and GP of The General Partnership, a fund that prioritizes talent in a network-based approach. Formerly he was early-Mozilla and then went on to Greylock where he carved out a role as a talent partner. Dan talks to Nolan and Kelli about how VC and VC talent partners operate, an influential world that most people in the venture and startup ecosystem don't actually know that much about. They also talk about backchannels, going from HR leadership roles to finding success

Dec 21, 2023 • 58:05

Segment: Is the DEI Movement in Tech Causing More Harm than Good?

Segment: Is the DEI Movement in Tech Causing More Harm than Good?

Kelli and Nolan discuss their different perspectives on the effectiveness of DEI initiatives and the temperature in tech businesses right now.–Feedback is welcome - send a note to Kelli and Nolan on LI to let us know what you think.Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should nev

Dec 15, 2023 • 17:00

Navigating the CEO-CPO Relationship with Lattice's Cara Brennan Allamano

Navigating the CEO-CPO Relationship with Lattice's Cara Brennan Allamano

Cara Brennan Allamano is the Chief People Officer at Lattice and previously at Udemy, Pinterest, and Adobe. Nolan and Kelli talk to Cara about the intricacies of building relationships with CEOs, different career paths for people leadership, undergoing layoffs with dignity, and the importance of saying "no" when necessary for the health of the organization. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software th

Dec 14, 2023 • 52:55

Brett Queener Unfiltered: A Wake Up Call for Tech, 2024 Planning, and Driving High Performance

Brett Queener Unfiltered: A Wake Up Call for Tech, 2024 Planning, and Driving High Performance

Brett Queener is a partner at Bonfire Ventures, with a background extending to nearly every function as an operator at Salesforce, Smart Recruiters, and more. Brett is well-versed in the mechanics of early-stage companies and this conversation covers the death rate of startups, the point of board meetings, getting people to work outrageously hard for you, and more.Kelli and Nolan’s segment this week (54:00-01:09:30) discusses Jack Dorsey’s decision to eliminate PIPs and expands into a broader di

Dec 7, 2023 • 1:08:47

The HR Insider: Melanie Naranjo, VP People at Ethena Gets Real

The HR Insider: Melanie Naranjo, VP People at Ethena Gets Real

Melanie Naranjo is the VP, People at Ethena and an insightful writer at the forefront of HR thought leadership. In this episode, Melanie, Kelli and Nolan dig into the current sentiment in HR, why the bar is set lower than it should be, why you should abandon PIPs, instilling a culture of feedback among execs, and why EQ isn’t the most important skill to develop in a people leader. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics–SPON

Nov 30, 2023 • 59:19

David Hanrahan on High Performance: Comp Strategy, Performance Cycles, and New Norms

David Hanrahan on High Performance: Comp Strategy, Performance Cycles, and New Norms

David Hanrahan is the Chief People Officer of Flare and a highly respected people leader. David joins Kelli and Nolan for an unfiltered discussion on pushing for high performance in your company, normalizing scorecards, and what qualities separates the best HR leaders. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics–SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhe

Nov 21, 2023 • 55:19

Steve Cadigan on Blitzscaling LinkedIn, Competitive Exec Teams, and RTO

Steve Cadigan on Blitzscaling LinkedIn, Competitive Exec Teams, and RTO

Steve Cadigan scaled LinkedIn from 400 to 4000 people in 3.5 years, and is now an author and consultant on global talent strategy. He joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss lessons from working with LinkedIn’s CEO during hyper scale, recruiting talent, going public, and debate the future of work. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsAfter the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent incidents of employees being

Nov 16, 2023 • 1:23:02

Molly Graham on Building a Powerful Network, Managing Your Emotions, and Creating High Performing Teams in Hyperscale

Molly Graham on Building a Powerful Network, Managing Your Emotions, and Creating High Performing Teams in Hyperscale

Molly Graham is a seasoned exec, builder, and widely-read writer in tech. She joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss her lessons from working on different challenges (HR,Comms, GTM, COO) in hyper-scaling companies, career building, assembling strong leadership teams, and managing the rollercoaster emotions of zero-to-one startups. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsAfter the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss

Nov 9, 2023 • 1:05:40

Tomasz Tunguz on Hiring the Right Talent, Firing the Wrong Execs, and Navigating M&As

Tomasz Tunguz on Hiring the Right Talent, Firing the Wrong Execs, and Navigating M&As

Tomasz Tunguz is a General Partner at Theory Ventures and the writer of one of the best blog/newsletters in tech. Tom joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss the relationship between boards, founders and People leaders, and how HR strategies interact with boards in key moments of a company’s history, including M&A. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsAfter the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss the dynamics of n

Nov 2, 2023 • 53:02

Colleen McCreary on Layoffs, M&A, and Recruiting the Best Talent

Colleen McCreary on Layoffs, M&A, and Recruiting the Best Talent

Colleen McCreary, a seasoned Chief People Officer (Zynga, Credit Karma, EA, Twilio) -turned-venture capitalist at Ribbit Capital, sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church. This insider conversation covers tactical advice for navigating Mergers and Acquisitions (she’s been through multiple), layoffs, recruiting top talent, and transitioning from an HR leader into the world of the board room. Before the interview, Nolan and Kelli also discuss the recent negative press for Carta's CEO Henry

Oct 26, 2023 • 1:00:40

Patty McCord Thinks HR People Are Business People

Patty McCord Thinks HR People Are Business People

On the inaugural episode of HR Heretics, author and former Chief Talent Officer of Netflix Patty McCord joins co-hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a candid interview to talk through how to innovate from the HR role, buck best practices, and how to build a high performing company. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice www.lattice.com/hrheretics–Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: www.lattice.com/

Oct 19, 2023 • 1:08:44

Switch to the Fountain App