Can you change a system from within? In light of the UN’s call for “transformative systemic change”, in this week’s episode Lily explores how that systemic change might actually happen: wondering if our legal and political machinery is up to the task, and asking why people are taking to the streets, and even getting arrested, to try to change our laws. Lily speaks to four environmentalists who share similar aims but very different pathways: an MP and Minister working with and within the UK government; activists activity rebelling against the UK government; law makers and law breakers. Guests include the UK’s Conservative Environmental Minister Zac Goldsmith, Green Party MP Caroline Lucas, environmental lawyer and activist Farhana Yamin and co-founder of Extinction Rebellion Gail Bradbrook.   Questioning whether the pressure from the outside is necessary to shift gears in the conversation, this is a fascinating episode that ultimately explores where power lies in a crisis. You can hear more from Farhana Yamin, Caroline Lucas, Gail Bradbrook, and other protestors and politicians in Lily’s book, Who Cares Wins, which is out now in hardback, ebook and audiobook.Audible: https://bit.ly/3jwS8UHWaterstones: https://bit.ly/30OsUtrApple: https://apple.co/2XT7TvMMusic featured in the episode by Cosmo Sheldrake: Wriggle and Wake Up Calls, featuring recordings of endangered birds in Britain. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.