We're often told that it would be unfeasible for everyone on the planet to live good lives—that if there wasn't some degree of poverty—or at least lower living standards—in the rest of the world, then we'd blow right through the ecological limits of the planet. Even if it's not said explicitly, the argument is that some people need to be poor in order for us in the Global North to live good lives. There's a lot wrong with this assumption on a lot of different levels, but most importantly—it's empirically inaccurate. It is possible, in fact, for everybody on the planet to have their needs met and to live a good life and make it happen, in fact, with only 30 percent of current global resource and energy use. That might sound unbelievable, right? Well, that's capitalist realism for you. Because not only is it believable—it's based on solid research and empirical data. It would, however, require ending capitalism and moving towards eco-socialism. So yes, it's possible. But it won't be easy. To discuss the research behind these exciting findings we've brought on economic anthropologist Jason Hickel. Jason is a professor at the The Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and the author of the books The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions and Less is More: How Degrowth will Save the World. He's the lead author of the paper "How much growth is required to achieve good lives for all? Insights from needs-based analysis" published in the journal World Development Perspectives, and which we'll be discussing today. As you may know, Jason is a regular guest on the show and was on most recently to discuss two other fascinating and important papers he recently co-authored, "Imperialist appropriation in the world economy: Drain from the global South through unequal exchange, 1990–2015" published in journal Global Environmental Change and "Unequal exchange of labour in the world economy" published in the journal Nature Communications. What assumptions go into traditional economic thinking and how have they limited the way we conceptualize poverty and how we address it? How do we conceive of good lives—and how does our current economic system limit these conceptions and perpetuate environmental destruction and social immiseration? What would an economic system that is designed around meeting actual human and planetary needs look like? And, perhaps most importantly, how do we get there? These are just some of the questions we discuss in this fascinating conversation with economic anthropologist Jason Hickel. Further Resources: The Political and Economic Determinants of Health Outcomes: A Cross-National Analysis, Hugh F. Lena and Bruce London How to pay for saving the world: Modern Monetary Theory for a degrowth transition, Christopher Olk, Colleen Schneider, Jason Hickel Related Episodes: How the North Plunders the South w/ Jason Hickel The Divide – Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets with Jason Hickel International Development and Post-capitalism with Jason Hickel How Degrowth Will Save the World with Jason Hickel The Green Transition Pt.1 – The Problem with Green Capitalism Covert art: Berwyn Mure Intermission music: One Last Wish Upstream is a labor of love—we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.