The echo of the past can be filled with uncertainties, especially for those touched by adoption. Award-winning author Julie McGue, a twin adoptee bravely bares her soul in her quest for identity within her richly blended family. Our conversation explores the topic of closed adoption, and highlights not only the obstacles faced by those denied access to their biological lineage and medical history, but also the universal longing to deeply understand our roots. From the insecurities of adoptive parents to the fear of rejection from birth parents, we travel the rocky road adoptees commonly face. But also, the transformative power of community and storytelling that can serve as a channel for the shared human experience that heals and shapes our lives. ⁣ ⁣ CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS⁣ 00:00 Intro ⁣ 04:38 Discovering Family History and DNA ⁣ 08:40 Navigating Family and Identity Struggles ⁣ 11:13 Reunion and Discovery⁣ 17:01 Adoption and Loss⁣ 19:15 Community Support ⁣ 32:54 Ancestral Exploration and Healing ⁣ 34:35 The Power of Storytelling⁣ 36:25 Rapid Fire Game⁣ 38:05 Julie's final thoughts⁣ 39:45 Hilary's closing ⁣ CONNECT WITH JULIE MCGUE⁣ https://www.juliemcgueauthor.com ⁣ www.facebook.com/juliemcguewrites⁣ www.instagram.com/julieryanmcgue⁣ www.linkedin.com/in/julie-mcgue-a246b841⁣ ⁣ JULIE'S BOOKS ON AMAZON⁣ ⁣"Twice a Daughter: A Search for Identity, Family, and Belonging" and "Belonging Matters: Conversations on Adoption, Family, and Kinship"⁣ ⁣ LEARN MORE ABOUT HAVENING WITH HILARY⁣ https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening⁣ ⁣RECEIVE THE BRAIN CANDY NEWSLETTER https://hilaryrusso.com/braincandy CONNECT WITH HILARY⁣ https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso⁣ ⁣https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso⁣ https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking⁣ https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking⁣ https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast⁣ ⁣Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/⁣ ⁣ ⁣ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ⁣ (Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast⁣)⁣ ⁣ 00:08 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ This is the day that she always feared would happen. And all of a sudden, here it is, it's happening, and she didn't show her best self. Did she come around? Yes, she came around, but it was a tricky mother-daughter conflict. We were adults, so we did work our best at re-encouraging everyone that the love was there. ⁣ ⁣ 00:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ We hear a lot of ups and downs when it comes to adoption, but one thing if you are not an adoptee or you're not even connected to the adoption community, a lot of questions come up about belonging, identity, how to make sure you know everything about your health and well-being and I have not covered this topic on HIListically Speaking before and I find this to be something that is extremely important for us to talk about whether you know somebody or you are an adoptee or you have adopted a child and I think one person that is a perfect guest to have on the show is Julie McGue. She is an adoptee, she is also a twin, and she is someone that did not seek out information about her adoption until later in life. And, Julie, this is a topic that I think does need more discussion, and I'm so glad you're here to share your experiences and your story. So thanks for being here. Thank you, yeah, oh. ⁣ ⁣ 01:41⁣ Was Julie adopted together with her sibling? Were they adopted separately, and how the relationship with your sibling and the family really was able to grow and prosper and just create that sense of belonging and identity? Can we go into that first? Oh, sure, I'd be happy to. ⁣ ⁣ 02:01 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ So my twin sister and I were adopted together through Catholic Charities and their policy was always to keep multiple birth siblings together. So right off the bat, my birth mom knew that if she had more than one child which was definitely something that ran in her family that her daughters or her kids would stay together, so that was important to her. One of the things that's interesting about being a twin, especially if you're adopted is one of the things that adoptees often wonder about is who do I look like, who do I take after? And so that sense of belonging is a big question for adoptees. From the very beginning I never had to look understand who I look like. I always looked like my sister. To be raised with a full sibling is a real blessing for any adopted person. So a lot of good things came out of being adopted with my sister. ⁣ ⁣ 03:12⁣ My parents also adopted a boy two years after my sister and I, and how often happens, they were able to have three biological children after all of us. So I grew up in this big Irish Catholic blended family of three adoptees and three biological kids. To my parents' credit, I don't think I could tell any difference, but how they treated any one of us. Everybody had the same rewards, the same punishments. They were pretty strict and they were very clear about how much they loved us and how much they wanted this family that they built through adoption and natural childbirth. ⁣ ⁣ 03:59⁣ So I waited until I was 48 years old to do any research about my adoption. It was closed. Closed means that the birth parents' identities are disguised or hidden, and it also allows adoptive parents to not have that co-parenting situation that sometimes happens with open adoption. But unfortunately, what it does is it doesn't allow an adoptee to have any sense of their identity, from where they came from, who they were before adoption was the plan made for them. ⁣ ⁣ 04:38⁣ So, even though I had this twin sister and I knew I belonged to her and I certainly felt belonging in my family, I had no idea. Was I really Catholic? Was I really Irish? What else did I not know? And then I had this breast biopsy at 48 and my husband insisted that I get at family history if I could. I have three daughters. All of that affected them, and so my first phone call was to my twin sister and it said you know, what do you think? And she said absolutely, I support you completely. It became my journey, my story, but she was involved every step of the way, every decision that we had to make. She and I talked about it. ⁣ ⁣ 05:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ So that is a lot. That is a lot later in life to question your family history, knowing that you came from a nurturing, loving family, had a sibling who looked just like you that you can share that experience with, in addition to another sibling who was also adopted. Was there ever, even earlier in life, a desire to want to find out more about your birth mother and your lineage, your past, your DNA? We're doing so many of these DNA tests now. Did that exist? ⁣ ⁣ 06:04 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Yes, that did exist and this is something that adoptees talk about a lot, that we have a lot of fantasies with lack of information. Like anybody, you kind of make up your own story in your head. You know, brene Brown talks about that a lot in her books the stories we make up in our heads to make us feel better about something that just happened. So my sister and I decided when we were teenagers our birth parents must have been teenagers and we decided that maybe he was the star football player and maybe she was the head cheerleader and that they, they were passionate and they wanted to go to college. And this just wasn't what you know. They wanted to do was get married and raise kids. So that appeased us for a while. There also was in the back of my mind and my sister's mind that, you know, maybe it was something else, maybe it was two were too many, maybe that was the reason why we were placed for adoption. So there were a lot of things to think about when you know that the gatekeepers are going to keep you from accessing everything. You just stuck it in a little drawer and every once in a while you take it out are going to keep you from accessing everything. You just stuff it in a little drawer and every once in a while you take it out and you look at it and then you put it back in. What ended up happening? Timing was everything with this. ⁣ ⁣ 07:37⁣ I had the breast biopsy. ⁣ ⁣ 07:39⁣ Turns out I didn't have breast cancer, but the threat that it might be in my family line meant I was going to full steam ahead. I was ready to go, my sister was ready to help with it, and the state of Illinois had changed their policy, their law about adoption, meaning that any adoptee over a certain age could access the original birth record. So I accessed my original birth record. Unfortunately, the search agency I turned it over to figured out that my birth mom had used an alias on the original birth record perfectly legal in 1959 to falsify a public record like that sounding to me, and also perfectly legal to not include the birth father's name. He didn't sign off on his parental rights, which is not something that happens today. ⁣ ⁣ 08:40⁣ So we were kind of stuck and at the same time that we're struggling with getting the search going, my adoptive mom was not happy with me. She really feared that she was going to be set aside as our mother and I had to work really hard and so did my, to prove to her that our bond was our bond. She had raised us, and that was a tricky thing. I'm battling health, I'm battling this search and I'm also having to be really careful with my adoptive mom. So there were a lot of issues at play. ⁣ ⁣ 09:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ And I imagine that this could also bring, were a lot of issues at play, and I imagine that this could also bring up the thought of loss and grief and grief, before grief even happens. Your mom raised beautiful children and, while they might not be from her womb, there's kind of a spiritual womb that exists in families that are well-rounded and close and that can be a disconnection. So, having that conversation and her also knowing that there was another entity that was on Team Julie being your twin, I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for her. But my question is how did you have conversations with your brother about this as well? ⁣ ⁣ 10:04 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Oh, yes, definitely. ⁣ ⁣ 10:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Because here is another child in the family that was also adopted, and does it spark that curiosity for your brother as well to try to find his birth parents? ⁣ ⁣ 10:16 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ He was waiting and watching how my parents handled my sister and I going down this path when our search got rolling and I ended up getting involved with Catholic Charities because they had a social worker that did this kind of work. He came to every adoption support group meeting with me, paying attention, seeing how he was going to sort through this for himself. My sister and I definitely blazed the trail for him and by the time he got around to doing it, my parents realized this was going to be okay, the family was going to stay intact, that this was very important to all of us to understand who and where we came from and assimilate that into our personality. My mom did eventually come around. It is kind of a God wink moment, if you will, at the end of the book Twice a Daughter. ⁣ ⁣ 11:13⁣ I won't give everything away, but I do find a brother and a sister, a half brother and a half sister, so we share the same father. And when I do find my birth father, he doesn't want anything to do with my sister and I, but he does give me my medical history, which was what I was after, and he wouldn't comply with DNA analysis. So there was this question was he really the right guy and I really did feel like I needed DNA to know, because breast cancer ran in his family. My aunt had died of breast cancer before she was 40. So big breast cancer scary stuff. And my brother, my birth father, told my brother that you know, there's these two women. One of them is requesting all of this information and testing in and I'm not going to do it. And my brothers just picked up the phone and called me a cold call and, as we often do when we're talking with strangers, you know you're saying where did you go to school and how do you know? How do we, how would our paths have crossed ever? ⁣ ⁣ 12:26⁣ But came out that I knew his wife and that his wife and my family were intertwined. I won't give the whole secret away and because of that, because my adoptive parents and my adoptive family already knew my sister-in-law and her family, we all had probably met my brother and not known he was our brother. It fixed everything, Hilary. Instantly it was my mom realized oh, I know these people. This is great. Let's get together for family dinner. This is an amazing, beautiful moment. So the story, you know, it's ups and downs and it's one setback after another, but in the end there was this beautiful coming together of families that knew each other but didn't know they were biologically related. Do I ever get to meet my birth father? I don't he. He had a cardiac event and died before he changed his mind, so who knows if that would have ever happened. ⁣ ⁣ 13:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ It sounds like it is a Godwink moment and so fortunate to be able to have that and have some sense of closure. But not everyone gets that. ⁣ ⁣ 13:56 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ No, you did mention your book. ⁣ ⁣ 13:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ I want to mention that real quick. Julie has three books. The third one's coming out next year, but the book we're referring to is Twice a Daughter, A Search for Identity, Family and Belonging, and then your second book is Belonging Matters. Those are the conversations of adoption, family and kinship, more like essays, and we'll put all of these links in the podcast notes. But just to go back to that, this is a wonderful turnout. Sounds like a perfect movie where everybody works out like a Hallmark movie in a way. ⁣ ⁣ 14:29⁣ But it's not always like that, Because when you think about and I just know this personally, not from being an adoptee or adopting, but having friends who have and sometimes you don't find the parents, sometimes you find family members and they don't really want to have a connection with you. ⁣ ⁣ 14:48 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Oh, it definitely. At my birth, mom did not want anything to do with us either, so it was not an easy road for her as far as being found. ⁣ ⁣ 14:58 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Right, but when it comes to health, do you think that there are laws and rules that need to be in place? And if that's the case, how would that change adoption for those who would consider putting their child up for adoption but don't want to be found? ⁣ ⁣ 15:16 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ The trend now in adoption is open adoption, which means that an adoptive parent enters into an adoption plan with the birth parents and they establish between them what the contact is going to be. Is it going to be just a yearly phone conversation or cards and letters? So it is between the birth parents and the adoptive parents, so that piece is so much better. When it comes to adoption, closed adoptions really did go out of vogue after 1980. Unfortunately, to your point about laws and statutes those of us that were adopted before 1980 during closed adoption it is up to each individual state to decide what their statutes are and to this point Illinois was one of the first eight states that changed open records acts. New York has changed their laws. There's probably about 15 out of 50 states that allow people my age to access their original birth records and research their family medical history. ⁣ ⁣ 16:32⁣ Unfortunately, dna can help some of us. It can't help all of us because the database is only as good as the people that subscribe to it. For example, my half-brother. That family never would have signed up for DNA. They don't want their specimens anywhere, so I would not have been able to find them through DNA. ⁣ ⁣ 17:01⁣ But some adoptees do the thing about birth parents and I want to emphasize the loss because you brought that up earlier. Loss is prevalent in the whole adoption triad. Adoptive parents most of them choose adoption as the way to build a family because they have infertility. So there's this insecurity about being able to have a biological child, a birth parents, birth mothers generally. It's a searing loss for them to have this situation present themselves where they're not going to parent their child and adoptees lose a sense of their family and their identity. ⁣ ⁣ 17:50⁣ One of the things that happened as a result of my search and my birth mom telling my sister and I I don't want anything to do with these girls I wasn't expecting that, Hilary, I thought I would be the lost girl found that she was waiting for me to find her. In fact, she didn't want to be found. She feared Her family had not. She'd never told her family. She feared my birth father coming back into her life. ⁣ ⁣ 18:22⁣ There was a lot of fear about that and I turned to Catholic Charities and got involved with their post adoption support group and it was one of the most meaningful things that came out of that adoption search because I came to understand the heartache that a birth mother goes through in coming to the decisions that they make and they work just as hard as adoptees do to make contact with their birth child sometimes with no success, sometimes with success and the adoptive parents. My adoptive mom was a little unusual in her lack of support because there were adoptive parents in our group that were supporting their child to find access to information that was important to them. It's a complicated situation for everybody and the people that are outside of the adoption world. I think sometimes there's some preconceived ideas about it. Adoptees like me present themselves until my middle age as being well-adjusted, and I write an essay about that in Belonging Matters. I did feel well-adjusted until I wasn't well-adjusted. I wanted that. ⁣ ⁣ 19:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ When was that? ⁣ ⁣ 19:49 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Well, I needed to know this family history and I couldn't have it, and it made me mad, and I think that you know there are a lot of angry adoptees out there. I think maybe that's some of the voices that people hear adoptees that aren't happy about their situation or they can't find, um, their relatives, um. But I felt like the, the support group that I I'm still involved in that, by the way, it's been 15 years, um, I think when you start listening to everybody else's perspective and you realize this isn't just about you, there's other things at play here. I think it allows us not only to heal personally but to have empathy for the other members in the triangle. ⁣ ⁣ 20:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Yeah, it's a sense of community, knowing that you're not alone, even if your story is different. It's giving you a sense of community and a collective of those who are going through something with that similar attachment. ⁣ ⁣ 20:57 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Yes, exactly. ⁣ ⁣ 20:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ So that anytime we can have a support and a community, and I imagine sometimes that's even a community of people who aren't connected to your story personally. Right, so that, and it's beautiful that you're still involved with that that the thought that is coming up to me is you were 48 when this awareness of I need to make some decisions and get some answers came to pass. But were there moments earlier where you really felt that pull? I mean, you mentioned making up the stories with your sister. Have you approached your parents, your adopted parents, prior to look into this earlier? ⁣ ⁣ 21:45⁣ And were you shut down? Were you supported? ⁣ ⁣ 21:55 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ you shut down? Were you supported? Really good question. So when I always knew that I was adopted. So that was a conversation my parents must have had with us when we were three or four or something, but every once in a while, around our birthday, they would sit us down in the living room and we'd have the adoption talk and they'd ask us you know, is there anything we can help you with? If you want to research your adoption, we'll help you, okay? So that conversation happened a handful of times when I was growing up. So my mother's reaction to me deciding to eventually search at 48 came out of nowhere and, as we talked about earlier, I know now that it came out of fear. She was worried that this woman was going to be a threat to her and in talking with the social worker about her reaction, she said you know, this is the day that she always feared would happen. Yeah, and she put it out of her mind. ⁣ ⁣ 23:00⁣ And all of a sudden, here it is, it's happening, and she didn't show her best self. Did she come around? Yes, she came around. Self Did she come around? Yes, she came around. But it was, you know, a tricky mother-daughter conflict. You know, we were adults, so we did work our best at just re-encouraging everyone that the love was there. ⁣ ⁣ 23:28 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ I imagine that is a conversation that parents who have adopted children have with themselves quite regularly, because you especially when you mentioned the fact that there are different reasons why people adopt many times it might be because they can't have their own children and when you finally have that moment, you're like holding your breath, that first year especially, you know, will anything change? Is this going to become an adoption? If it started in foster care, then adoption so many different avenues that people can take and then, as the child gets older, they become so much a part of you. If it is that well-balanced family environment, you stop thinking about those things, but it's still there and there's that thought of loss before a loss even exists, right, so the brain tends to go there. We go to the negative. It's how we keep ourselves alive. So creating that nurturing reminder to your mom and letting her know that it's still something I'm sure she thought about every day in some way, you know. So what would be your advice? And before we even go there, I just want to mention again, if you did miss it the first time Julie is an adoptee. ⁣ ⁣ 24:48⁣ She's also a twin and she pursued finding her, adopted, her birth mother at 48 years old due to a potential health issue which we're happy that you're not dealing with. But then you have to think about your own family, like your children. You said you're a mother of three daughters, and then where do we go from there? So Julie has two wonderful books that are out very different and they kind of build on each other. I imagine you have Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging, and then Belonging Matters Conversations on Adoption, family and Kinship, which is more of the essays, and then a new book coming out, which is another memoir in 2025, which is Twice the Family a memoir of love, loss and sisterhood. Really beautiful. Build on these three areas in your life, like, basically it's it's three stages in your life and building on that, was it, was it ever a thought, to become an author? Did you think about that? ⁣ ⁣ 25:50 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ I have always been a writer but a journaler, so more of a private writing experience. So when Twice a Daughter, the story of the adoption search was unfolding, I was keeping copious notes with my journals and the more I told people the story of what was happening. And you know, I can't find my birth mother. Now I found my birth mother and she doesn't want to know us and my mom doesn't want to help me with this and the health stuff was going on whole saga which was five years from beginning to end. People would say, gosh, I hope you're going to write a book about this. And I thought, wow, I wonder if I should. And so I started taking writing classes at the University of Chicago in downtown Chicago, and so the book came together in 2021. And right right after COVID. I mean, I was writing the book during COVID. ⁣ ⁣ 26:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Great time to write. ⁣ ⁣ 26:53 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Yeah, what's interesting about having written the story and one of the things I like to speak to is this is my story, yes, but every struggle that I went through in that process is the same thing that other adoptees go through. They struggle with support from their adoptive family. They struggle with connection to make with their birth parents, to make with their birth parents. Some adoptees find siblings and in the communities that I'm involved in, most of us have better relationships with our siblings the siblings that we find than we do with our birth parents, because they don't have any skin in the game. They don't have any baggage to bring to the relationship. They're excited. They have two new siblings that they didn't even know that they had and there are a lot of similarities and it's been a lot of fun getting to know my new brother and sister, although my brother always says I am not your new brother, I have always been your brother, so I find that very sweet. I've also one of the things that I've written essays about is getting to know beyond this immediate circle. ⁣ ⁣ 28:15⁣ My birth mom didn't want to tell her family. She wanted to keep us a secret. Her family, she wanted to keep us a secret, and this whole theme of secret keeping is, and shame is, at the very core of adoption from the closed adoption era. She had a hard time letting people know, because she had taken on society's shame and blame, viewed herself as a sinner, that she'd had this relationship outside of marriage and he wouldn't marry her, and it was something that she kept inside her identity. She didn't marry until she was in the late 40s. I don't have any other siblings from her, and so it has never been easy for her to introduce us to other people, and some of the things that she did to my sister and I not introducing us to family members and not inviting us to family reunions is foreign to me. My family that I grew up in was very loving. We had a lot of family gatherings, family reunions, big parties. ⁣ ⁣ 29:30⁣ I couldn't understand my birth mother's attitude about including my sister and I, and I have finally come to the place I talk about healing that. I realize it's not my problem, it's her problem. I can't fix her. I would love for her to be fixed so that she could find joy in this relationship with her two daughters that she never could claim. I mean, think about how hard that is on Mother's Day to pretend that you are not a mother, so I have a lot of empathy for her and her situation. That was not easy to come to. A lot of self-work on that front. I also have forgiveness for my birth father. He chose not to meet us. ⁣ ⁣ 30:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ That was my first question. ⁣ ⁣ 30:22 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, because yeah, he chose not to meet my sister and I, and that situation is complicated by a second marriage or whatever. I had a great dad growing up. My adoptive father was just amazing, everyone's favorite, and so I don't feel cheated. There is one thing I do feel cheated about. ⁣ ⁣ 30:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ What's that? ⁣ ⁣ 30:46 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ I found out that my sister and I are strongly Native American on both sides of my biological families. I was deprived of knowing that, identifying with a culture that was mine to know my adoptive parents it's not their fault, they were not given any of that information, so I didn't find out about this culture that I belonged to until I was in my 50s and it's a little late then. Also, because my birth father's name is not on my original birth record means that I can't claim to be a Chippewa, so denied on many fronts, and so I'm still figuring that out. Here I am 65 and I'm still trying to figure out. How do I feel about this identity piece? I want to belong in that culture, I want to understand it, but I am denied access. ⁣ ⁣ 31:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ And I imagine that goes back to the feelings associated with ancestral and generational trauma. You never connected to it knowingly, but when? And this I think this goes back to the DNA testing, all these DNA testings that we're finding out about now and using, and people are finding families that exist all over the world. Being able to attach yourself to a lineage, a culture, a heritage that you had no clue about and wanting to learn more about it, but then for you not being able to actually claim it is, in some ways, another loss. ⁣ ⁣ 32:37 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Definitely is. ⁣ ⁣ 32:38 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Yeah, yeah. So do you still feel a connection to it, to where you want to explore, learning about it, even if you can't claim it? ⁣ ⁣ 32:53 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Absolutely. I have some trips planned to northern Minnesota to see where my birth father is from Minnesota, to see where my birth father's from. He grew up very poor on the outskirts of the Chippewa Reservation in northern Minnesota, and so I do have plans to visit those places. I did extensive genealogy and have a lot of family history that I find fascinating, and so do my children, which is kind of fun. Three of my kids played college sports and that was kind of a joke in my family because I didn't have access to where did that come from, and so we never really knew. And then we found out that our birth father played college football, and so some of these things have fallen into place, made sense. ⁣ ⁣ 33:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ It really is putting together a puzzle. Yeah, yeah, it really is. And how beautiful it is that you're experiencing all these things with now, your own children and your sister and family members that are curious. It's a curiosity, you know, but you know, with these traumas, as I often say and you mentioned as well, you find the healing there's a little bit of humor there's always you're confronted with your health turns into those triumphant moments, you know, and your mess is your message, basically. So what is next for Julie, in addition to the book that you have coming out, what is it that you are exploring now, in this stage of your life, with all of this beautiful knowledge? ⁣ ⁣ 34:35 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ One of the things I really like to do is write short essays. For example, I had I was on vacation. I came back I was dreading going out to the mailbox and getting the mail and paying the bills and doing all that and so reluctantly went out there and the mail hadn't come yet. I didn't realize that. But inside my mailbox was a little card. A child had drawn it and a message inside and it said you won the mailbox project, love Layla. ⁣ ⁣ 35:12⁣ So I just wrote an essay about this and it just caught me at the right moment. Here was an innocent child doing a random act of kindness, stuffed a little note in my mailbox and I came upon it right when I needed to. So that another little God wink moment. Going back to my comment earlier, I love finding these quirky little moments in life and building them out and writing a story about it. I write often about my grandsons and some of the fun, cute little stuff that they do. In fact I wrote an essay last fall that is in belonging matters, and I just recently found out it won a couple of different awards. ⁣ ⁣ 36:00⁣ So I think I think I'm done writing memoir, but I think I'm not done being a storyteller. ⁣ ⁣ 36:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ That's great, yeah, we. Our stories are so much a part of our healing you know, and hopefully they'll touch, move and inspire someone else, right? What is it Brene says one day, your story will be somebody else's survival guide. ⁣ ⁣ 36:22 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Yes, oh yeah. So well said Something like that. ⁣ ⁣ 36:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to have a little fun with you for a moment before we close. Sure, I've been writing down some words that you've said and what I do is a rapid fire, which is basically word association. I'm going to throw out a word that you said and you just come back as fast as you can with one word that associates with that one. What comes to mind first. Okay, Okay. All right, here we go. Ad Self Heritage. ⁣ ⁣ 37:05 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Ancestry, family, belonging Community, neighbors. Author Writer Loss. Writer Loss. ⁣ ⁣ 37:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Grief DNA. ⁣ ⁣ 37:30 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Biology Support Community. ⁣ 37:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ Beautiful and we do need community. We really do, and this big part of what this show is about is bringing people together, you know, to find those trauma, to triumph moments and know that even if their stories are different, there's a connection in some way. So I appreciate you sharing your story and do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with listeners and those who tune in? ⁣ ⁣ 38:10 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ One thing I like to say to people is if you are not in the adoption community, but you know somebody that's touched by adoption, sit back and listen to what they have to say, or their viewpoint or their hurt, because so often we jump in and we offer an opinion or we have a perspective that we're not willing to change without really listening to somebody and I think this follows through with other hot topics. It doesn't have to be adoption. If we take the time to listen, time to listen and have empathy for the speaker, I think that we have the potential to invoke change in our societies and our communities, but we have to be willing to do that, to be willing to listen. ⁣ ⁣ 38:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ That's beautiful, always coming from that place of compassion and empathy. It doesn't have to be our story, but that's what connects us. Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. We will share all the information on your books, julie McGue. Three books In 2025, we'll see three out there. Maybe even more with all these essays you're writing. Who knows? But Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging, belonging Matters, conversations on Adoption, family and Kinship. And in 2025, twice a Family A Memoir of Love, loss and Sisterhood, and all of that will be in the podcast notes. I highly recommend sharing this, taking time to read these stories and see what your connection is and the empathy that you might have to this conversation, julie, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. ⁣ ⁣ 39:42 - Julie McGue (Guest)⁣ Thanks, Hilary. Thanks for your thoughtful questions and really easy conversation. ⁣ ⁣ 39:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)⁣ I appreciate it, my pleasure. All right, my friends, if this conversation with Julie McGue inspired you in any way, like it did me, consider leaving a rating and a review wherever you're tuning in. It will help others find this podcast when you do that, and they might be the ones that really need to connect to the story. So do yourself a favor and do us a favor, and do others a favor and pay it forward. And if you want to connect with Julie personally, learn more about her stories or her books, I've shared all that information in the notes of this podcast. That includes her two books that are out right now Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging and Belonging Matters, which are conversations on adoption, family and kinship, and, of course, her soon-to-be-released book in 2025, which is Twice a Family, which is a memoir of love, loss, sisterhood. That comes out in February. ⁣ ⁣ 40:41⁣ And, yes, you can connect with me and learn more about how you can turn your traumas into triumphs, how you can hug it out with Havening with me as your guide, and you can also join us for Havening happy hours every month or any other event that I might be hosting. You can find that information on how to attend those events to connect with me. In the notes of this podcast as well, there's links for everything you need. HIListically Speaking is edited by 2 Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and tuned into by you. So thank you for returning week after week and being part of the process, and never forget, no matter your journey, you do belong and your story does matter. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week. Be well. ⁣ ⁣