Watch this interview on YouTubeFull transcript—"As marketers, we can't just respond to the bottom line," says TIAA CMO Micky Onvural. "We can't just say, 'Well give me a million dollars and I will give you this many customers or this many clicks, and if I do the right kind of mathematics, I'll give you this kind of lifetime value that's going to deliver you this to the bottom line.' I think you actually have to connect further upstream with the CFO."Today on Building Better CMOs, Micky explains what connecting further upstream looks like in practice, the retirement crisis in America, and the importance of vulnerability, humility, and curiosity in leadership. She and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart also discuss the importance of customer experience, Micky's years as the CEO of Bonobos, and how returning to the CMO role compares.Follow Building Better CMOs in your podcast appRate & review the podcastLinks: Micky's LinkedIn Greg's LinkedIn This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.Note: "Retirement check" refers to the annuity income received in retirement. Guarantees of fixed monthly payments are only associated with TIAA's fixed annuities.