It may not come as a surprise to most of you to hear that capitalism is the root cause of climate change. But if we unpack this a little bit, we see that it's a specific component of capitalism that's mostly responsible: the need for exponential and perpetual expansion. Growth isn't just a byproduct of capitalism, it's an imperative — an imperative to which we are all hostage. That's why, according to our guest in this week's Conversation, unless the climate movement centers degrowth in its strategies and policy proposals, nothing will fundamentally change. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author most recently of Less is More: How Degrowth will Save the World. We first spoke with Jason five years ago on his book The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions, and then again in 2020 on international capitalism during the pandemic. In this conversation, Jason explains why 'growthism' is so problematic for our health and the health of the planet. He talks us through alternatives to growth, and shares how we could realistically unhook from perpetual expansion and transition to a post-growth, post-capitalist economic system where we are all living healthier, happier lives on a thriving planet. This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.