In early 2024, independent developer Robin Linus published a paper outlining how one theoretically could verify zero-knowledge proofs on native Bitcoin for near-trustless scaling. A feat long considered impossible without a soft fork—the paper went viral, amassing over 3 million views and “nerd-sniping” some of the brightest developers and investors in the space. Since then, a flood of builder effort has gone into actuating BitVM bridges—with many of the most highly valued “layer 2s” contributing to the effort (think: Citrea, Alpen Labs, Babylon and others)—despite broad criticisms that the technology is “clunky” and may be “impractical” for end users. While Linus notably refused venture investment—instead choosing to develop BitVM through the non-profit association ZeroSync—he’s worked closely with key teams to push the technology forward, resulting in optimizations like “BitVM2” and the more recent exploration of “Garbled Circuits,” which may be the key to making BitVM “practical” after all. In this episode, Robin and I discuss:- his process for developing BitVM and how he broke through what was otherwise considered an impossible constraint- why he’s refused venture-funding for his work on the project and the investor-related trauma that pushed him into “head to toe” Bitcoin Maximalism- why payments are the most “relevant” use-case to push forward for truly permissionless, decentralized money.- why Bitcoin has certainly not “already won,” and how we risk Bitcoin’s promise of permissionless-ness if trustless scaling is not solved. This episode additionally shares insight into the one-and-only Bitcoin Wizards IRC—a critical influence in Robin’s work—as well as key figures in the development of BitVM @supertestnet @jeremyrubin @liameagan and Peter Weille. -TIMESTAMPS01:05 How Robin Linus discovered Bitcoin06:05 Why payments are *necessary* for Bitcoin07:00 Can Bitcoin actually win as a medium of exchange?08:45 Robin’s experience with Ethereum09:55 Robin launched an Ethereum ICO in 2018???10:40 The drama that turned Robin into a Bitcoin maxi12:25 The Bitcoin Wizards Group Chat in 201815:00 Robin is the protégé of Pieter Wuille18:00 Why Robin is not convinced by lightning18:45 ZK was always the answer19:38 Starkware exploring STARKs on Bitcoin22:00 Using STARKs to “compress” Bitcoin23:30 Rethinking Bitcoin Script and what’s possible26:30 Hacking new opcodes into Bitcoin29:10 The “Hack a ZKP verifier into Bitcoin” groupchat31:25 Lamport signatures: enabling state on Bitcoin34:50 Optimistic verification and “trust minimized” Bitcoin systems37:20 Bridge operators in BitVM systems38:40 Is 1-of-n the “endgame” for Bitcoin?40:55 What softfork does Robin Linus want?43:20 The lifechanging BitVM whitepaper45:00 The dawn of BitVM focused companies46:20 Founding the BitVM Alliance49:20 Going to Stanford to learn more cryptography52:00 Why academics hate Bitcoin53:20 Convincing academics of POW over POS54:05 What is BitVM2? How it improves on BitVM156:55 Why AI Is Centralizing - like Fiat01:00:40 What are ZKCoins? Taproot Assets on Steroids01:03:00 Way cheaper than Taproot Assets01:05:00 How far will BitVM go without a softfork?01:05:50 BitVM3 Coming Soon??? Waiting for“Garbled Circuits”