Ep158 - Your Nervous System, Mind, and Body have a Healing Secret Language with Karden Rabin
EpisodeJun 12, 20241h 5m
When it comes to healing the body and mind, there's an unspoken language. It requires understanding the deeper signals our bodies send. The language that's often overlooked. Until now. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, nervous system medicine practitioner, Kardin Rabin, shares his own journey through chronic back pain that left this body worker looking for ways to transcend and transform. What he found were synchronicities that not only opened the door of pain to purpose, but lead him on a journey to help himself and others regulate an often dysregulated nervous system. Discover the Secret Language of the Body with actionable steps to help you Heal through Awareness, Interruption and Redesign. And find out how a chance meeting with Bessel van Der Kolk at a coffee shop changed his life. Plus, an offering of tools and support that puts true healing within reach. Get 50% OFF the HEAL Program with the HIListically Speaking discount! Since Hilary is a HEAL Associate and believes in this work, you reap the rewards! Holistic Nervous System Regulation 10-Week Course https://programs.somiainternational.com/offers/3WZw69Wo Grab a copy of "The Secret Language of the Body: Regulate Your Nervous System, Heal Your Body, Free Your Mind" Hardcover: https://amzn.to/4bUvGiV (Amazon) Audiobook: https://amzn.to/4ehuYxY (Amazon) Kindle: https://amzn.to/4b1zWfw (Amazon) CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS 00:00 Intro 6:51 Opioids, Grief, and generational pain 11:51 Chronic Pain and Trauma17:20 Emotions and Pain Relationship21:10 Exploring Trauma and Healing Through Books 22:35 Bessel van der Kolk in a coffee shop24:42 The Secret Language of the Body 32:42 HEAL and SOMIA Program49:49 Serendipitous Encounters 53:44 Rapid Fire Game59:00 Conversation closing thoughts01:03:27 Hilary close and information PREFER TO WATCH THIS EPISODE ON YOUTUBE? Subscribe https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso OTHER BOOKS MENTIONEDThe Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van Der Kolk, MDhttps://amzn.to/4ccbU28 (Amazon) Healing Back Pain by John Sarnos, MDhttps://amzn.to/4bZdK78 (Amazon) CONNECT WITH KARDENhttps://somiainternational.com https://www.instagram.com/kardenrabin https://www.instagram.com/somiainternational HEALING IN YOUR HANDS. HAVENING WITH HILARY https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening CONNECT WITH HILARY https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com TRANSCRIPT Full transcript at https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast 00:05 - Karden Rabin (Guest) This process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders, absolutely requires a non-verbal approach through the unspoken language of the body. 00:21 - Hilary Russo (Host) Your nervous system needs you and I wish I knew this Correction correction. I wish I understood this is what I mean when I was struggling with my own chronic pain, when I had my jaw surgery, when I was on the healing journey because, let me tell you, at 15, it was a doozy and every year following that, I just did not have the tools right. And as we get older, we experience more of these snap crackle pops in our body. It happens, it's life right. 00:49 But here's the deal that pain in your body, that trauma that is making you want to run for cover because you don't feel safe. It's actually a signal. It's a signal, it's a call and you're hearing it and yeah, you've done the work. I get it. That's why you check in on this podcast week after week. You've done the work and you're like why am I not healing? Why am I feeling this way? Well, you've come to the right place, because it's all about finding the right support and people that will guide you on that journey, Like my friend, nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin. What's up, my friend, it is so good to have you here. 01:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Hi Hilary. 01:26 - Hilary Russo (Host) We talk so much before we press record and every time we have a conversation it's like I feel like we're just two kids in high school hanging out, chilling and just having a good time, because really, I mean, first of all, we get pretty giddy talking about the nervous system together, so we're totally geeking out. But, there's a reason for it. We're here on this planet to do something to help people, right? 01:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Yeah, to just vibe so well with someone who speaks your language and who helps you get it out there. 01:55 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, and you're doing that. You're doing that as co-founder of SOMIA, the HEAL program that you have Now, this new, incredible, unbelievable book that is just paving the way. That's the secret language of the body. Yes, please show that. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to have a link to that in the podcast notes for all you folks. And look good, golly, miss Molly, I'm so glad you're here because we need you and we need what you're doing. So thanks again for being here. 02:23 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Thanks for having me. 02:24 - Hilary Russo (Host) You have your own story. I think a lot of people like to know what brings you to the kind of work that you do, especially when you're dealing with the nervous system, the brain, the mind, anything like that, or just our body in general. And there's such a good story behind you. And listen those of you turning in. Carter and I haven't known each other forever. In fact, we have a newer friendship. But I love that because you align with people. We met at the Heal the Healer event conference two-day event and I was just like, oh my gosh, he's my people and he's going to be yours too. But I want you to share your story so people truly understand how you got into this work. 03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Yeah, okay, can truly understand how you got into this work. Yeah, okay, can I do it like memento style? Maybe it won't be in like sequential order, but we'll bop around a little bit. Yeah, okay. So I originally thought my story started with my own debilitating chronic back pain, because that is kind of the nice starting place in terms of starting around the age of 22,. I am 39 now. 03:26 I began having bad bouts of low back pain, which was kind of humbling and humiliating for someone who was a very well-trained body worker who was making his living getting other people out of pain, and for the next 10 years or more, maybe more like 12 years I worshipped at the throne of basically structure and function. So if I could just get someone's body aligned the right way and moving the right way, really clean, really perfect, yada, yada, yada either my clients or myself that would solve the pain, because that's how I was taught. That would solve the pain because that's how I was taught. I was taught basically and by the way I'm going to be a real a-hole right here that we're basically some I don't know steampunk robot thing from 1642 that has no brain or software or just some mechanism and as long as it's lubed up and put together rightly, it will work correctly. And it turns out that, although there's some truth to that, it's also bullshit. We're not a mechanism first, we're a nervous system first. We are a human with feelings and emotions and a brain and, moreover and I didn't know this at the time, because this is not what I had been taught the only organ in your body, the only organ in your body responsible for pain at all times, is your brain and your nervous system. That's it. I'll say that again. The only organ in your body at all times that's responsible for whether you have pain or not is your brain and your nervous system. And it makes errors right, like we've all, for example, had something brush our leg and go ow right, and we look down and it was just this, like maybe it was a thorn right, it wasn't a really big deal. There'll be other times where we'll get like burned or something while we're busy doing something and we won't even notice how badly we got burned. We'll see that we have some wound later on, right. Also, people will often be in like athletic events. They'll sprain an ankle. It'll be swollen as heck. They won't even notice it till the evening. The brain is making choices and decisions about pain all the time, and we're going to get a lot more into that, guys. 05:46 But essentially here I was trying to fix things mechanically and functionally for myself and my clients, sometimes being successful and sometimes not. And I went on like this for 10 or 12 years and each time my quote unquote back would go out, I would be bedridden, often for days out. I would be bedridden, often for days. I would have electrical storms of pain in my groin and my abdomen. I would have bilateral shooting pains like ice picks down into my calves, and it was threatening my livelihood, my life. I was no longer wanting to go out and do things, social things. I couldn't go on trips. My entire life started being defined by managing my incessant pain and again, it was not progressing with any of these conventional techniques Osteopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, body work, you name it. Uh, ayahuasca ceremonies, um and uh. I was. 06:51 This is where we'll go in the kind of memento stuff. I realized that I was marching down the same path towards drugs and surgery that took my mother from me when I was 21. That took my mother from me when I was 21. So my mom had had a back injury in her early 30s and she had gotten a double spinal fusion, which is a type of surgery where they fused L2, l3 and L4 in her back, and but even though she had it repaired, it was still hurting her and the next 20 years of her life was organized around managing this pain. And this was the mid 80s and 90s. And, Hilary, I'll give you three guesses. It begins with O and ends with opioids. What was the standard of care for my mother during that time Opioids. 07:44 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, opioids, I can't even imagine. 07:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest) My mother was prescribed 12 Percocets a day. That'd kill a horse, folks, it'd kill a horse. Yeah, 12 Percocets a day Went from specialist to specialist, surgeon to surgeon and year after year it was just those opioids, opioids. We're not going to go into my trauma and stuff right now, but growing up with a mother who was managing her own pain and was on 12 percocets a day, that I thought was normal. Like didn't everyone's mom just pop a dozen pills a day? Long story short is that a body can't do that forever, and so my mom died at 54 years old, when I was 21, of basically complications of long-term opioid use. Here I was, 12 years later, having done everything in my power by becoming healthy and a body worker and fit to avoid her fate, and I was marching towards it myself. 08:48 - Hilary Russo (Host) Our ancestral trauma. I mean, that's something I'm sure you deal with a lot too in the work that you do. But it's so much about us wanting to stop that ancestral trauma and it's a push-pull theory, right, Like we're saying I'm stopping it now, I'm not getting on that track, and we wind up falling into that if we're not too careful, you know, get the wake up call Well it was also total bypass, right. 09:11 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Yeah, it was no coincidence that my embodied pain, my symptom presentation due to my repression of my stress and trauma and dysregulation presented like my mother's right. So I just want to say here that genes are not everything, folks, when it comes to chronic illness Like yes, they might say you have a congenital or a family predisposition to rheumatoid arthritis or back pain or depression. And it's like yes, and you actually have nervous system modeling from generation to generation to generation. So, like when we talk about nurture versus nature, you know, when a child has chronic pain modeled to him for his entire childhood, then when his symptom presentation comes up, brains are social organs and they're often going to manifest their dysfunction precisely the way they were modeled to. So I got lucky, and the way I got lucky was in the midst of my chronic pain and hypocrisy. I was teaching anatomy and physiology to a yoga teacher training down on long island uh, basically laying on my back with my legs up the wall during every teaching segment because of how much misery I was in. 10:28 And in the home of the owner of the studio there was John Sarno's healing back pain. 10:36 And if your audience has never heard of John Sarno. He was an MD in New York City. He was a pioneer in this field. He really didn't know jack about trauma or modern neuroscience, but he was a great investigator and deductor and what he saw was that he'd have patient after patient come into his office and that the orthopedic and mechanical models or functional models that tried to explain their pain. He was like this is all bullshit and it's inconsistent and what's going on here should not be causing this person's hip or low back to be in such agony, but instead what he consistently saw were personality types, specifically in his case of repression, and type A perfectionism, which led to this consistent presentation of embodied pain. And then he educated his clients about what was going on in their mind body and then sometimes referred them to therapy and they got these miraculous improvements in their pain because this was the guy who said no, what's going on here is with their brain and their emotions, not with some inflammatory response in their low back or herniated disc. 11:51 And so I found, his book found me, and for the first time in five years I had a significant of almost an 80% improvement in my pain from just reading his book. 12:04 - Hilary Russo (Host) Which book was that? 12:06 - Karden Rabin (Guest) This was Healing Back Pain by John Sarno. 12:07 - Hilary Russo (Host) Grab that book, grab your book. 12:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Exactly, and even though this thing was book, the first edition of this one was 1991. And again, we've progressed quite a bit from what John was talking about, because he was looking at this stuff with the lens. He was trained in the 30s, but the point is it's still a valuable book. This book saved my life and initiated me into this entire space of helping people heal chronic pain, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraines, ibs this constellation, this galaxy of mind-body disorders that have their root in trauma, dysregulated nervous system and something we can talk more about, which is conditioned responses. And I guess there's a lot more to my story. But that's how I got here, hilary. 12:59 - Hilary Russo (Host) We're glad you're here because I feel like everything we go through and a big part of this podcast is the trauma to triumphs right, and if we're using our triumphs well, we're here to share with others how to take care of themselves. You know it's it's. It's like the your, your upset could be somebody else's survival guide. You know what you went through, so it sucks that we have to go through some of this stuff, but we learn from each other, you know. So your story could be someone else's survival guide and is. And then the work that you're doing is continuing to help other people not just survive but live well. 13:36 And I think, going back to what you said just a few minutes ago, learning that you could be doing all the trauma healing in the world. You can be doing everything to get your symptoms in alignment deal with your IBS, deal with your migraines, autoimmune problems but again, why do you want to deal with it? How do you get unstuck? And I think that's something I would like for us to talk about is like, how do you move beyond managing these things and actually find the healing? Because we hear the word manage a lot. Let's befriend it, let's manage it. People are just like I'm freaking tired of feeling the migraine and the pulsating in the back of my head or my stomach being in knots, and I'm eating all the anti-inflammatory foods out. Okay, it's more than that. So how do we take it to the next level? 14:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Yes, right, because I like to say that we come to this work to repair but we stay with it to transcend Right. So I think we're using very similar language, right. 14:34 So nervous system trauma very similar language, right. So nervous system distress, trauma, chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation. That's like this. Through line between them, they're sort of what make the soil ripe for symptoms ranging from chronic pain to cfs to uh, to gut issues, to autoimmune issues, um, but, like I said, they make it ripe. 14:57 So if your nervous system is basically in survival mode which is what trauma and chronic stress do to it we're all very familiar with when we're stressed out, when we're at our limit, the way we snap right, we like maybe snap at our kids, snap at our spouse, lose it at work. We're all very clear. Most of us can see our behavioral dysregulation. We might not be able to do something about it, but we see it. I am 100% literal here when I say your immune system, your nervous system, your cellular response is doing the same fucking thing in your body. Okay, so when you're not stressed out and the annoying person comes by, you're able to deal with it, but when you're stressed out, you snap at them. When you're stressed out and dysregulated and gluten comes through your belly, you snap because you can't deal with it, Because the entire system is at that point outside its window of tolerance outside of its capacity to absorb more. So what is basically a benign irritant, again, unless you have celiac. But like gluten, like environmental allergens, like dairy, like all these foods your body has been, by the way, become sensitized to and your own fear is driving it. These symptoms that present themselves largely have to do with your physiology responding in a completely dysregulated and hyperbolic way, in the same way that you're behaviorally responding hyperbolic and dysregulated to relations. There is no difference. Your mind, your body, your relationships and your cellular experience don't differentiate folks. So that's number one. That's the first part of what's driving symptoms, and so learning how to recondition your body, your nervous system, your immune system, your pain response system to have more regulated responses to internal stimuli is a parallel but separate skill set than learning how not to explode at your husband or snap at your kids and regulate in real time, relationally. 17:20 I want to say one other thing is that what tends to happen is conditioned responses. So my low back pain actually began again. The gun was kind of loaded by my mother's modeling. But I started CrossFit when I was 25. And I did it because I wanted to get strong and they and I you know CrossFit's freaking hard. I have this background of. I was a sickly asthmatic child and I ended up using shame and self-criticism in my teens to make myself fit because I was so embarrassed and again ashamed of my own weakness. So fitness was already associated with feelings of shame and pushing so hard and so much self-criticism to drive me forward. Now, at 25, I go into CrossFit. 18:14 They subject me to some ridiculously hard and inappropriate workout of deadlifts right, by the way, but this is what everyone needs to understand. I got an injury doing that, but the injury happened in parallel with a huge amount of shame and fear and pressure. The body learns a conditioned response. You think that what you see is when you go back to deadlift a few months later oh, this hurt my back again. Deadlifts hurt my back. 18:48 Actually, what then happens is that any time your body starts to feel intense feelings of shame or intense feelings of pressure, those emotions became part of the conditioned response that create pain symptom. 19:02 So you're looking at activities, but the special sauce of nervous system dysregulation and getting out of symptoms is to look at what emotional state your nervous system is in when you're experiencing symptoms, because it's that emotional state that's become associated with the symptom. So, instead of Pavlov ringing his bell to make the dog salivate, all those dogs might have to do now is feel shame and they'll salivate. So again, instead of the deadlift, making my low back hurt, a situation of having a lot of deadlines and maybe disappointing my boss, and feeling pressure and shame, holy shit, my back is hurting or my migraine started or my gut issue got worse. So I just threw a lot at you, Hilary. But where I'm getting at is that when we're dysregulated, our internal physiology has the same dysregulated responses inside our system as we have relationally outside our system to other people. And, moreover, chronic symptoms are the result of conditioned responses happening between emotional states and symptoms. 20:12 - Hilary Russo (Host) It's so important for us to know this and I'm glad you went into this. I think you gave a lot of different scenarios and examples If someone's coming to this for the first time and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa information overload. That's why we're here, because your book and I want to get into this again, the book that's been released is the secret language of the body regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to actually add that into the listen notes so you can grab it. But also for some of us who have maybe done a little more work maybe we're a little further on and maybe not you might've just heard of another book similar to which is the Body Keeps the Score right. That's Levander Colt's book, who you have a direct relationship with as his body worker, by the way. I mean just working with one of the most famous people that deal with the nervous system and regulation. Can we talk about that a little bit, because I think that's really important, even how that even happened, that synergy right there. 21:10 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Yeah. So, similarly to how I said, I got really fortunate, really blessed, really lucky to stumble into John Sarno's book right when I was on the precipice of having surgery. That book threw me into learning so much more about the mind, about the body, which took me into repressed emotions, which then eventually took me into trauma and somatic experiencing. Into trauma and somatic experiencing, I start exploring this world of basically how stress and trauma create physiological issues and, of course, I eventually stumble into Bessel's book. I keep all of these really close by. 21:46 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, you got like a library sitting right next to you. 21:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Right there, right there. They're all always here. And so Bessel's book is remarkable, because if you've read it, it has that gift of you being like, oh my God, this explains my suffering. 22:01 - Hilary Russo (Host) This is me right. 22:02 - Karden Rabin (Guest) This is me. I see now how my trauma, or my neglect, has created this and that and the science that he brings into it, the understanding that he brings into it into it. The understanding that he brings into it. And he also goes on further to show how, for example, people who have experienced traumas that their own immune system has higher markers for autoimmune processes, right Like trauma has caused that immune system to attack its own body more often. 22:35 It's like it's stitched or connected so many dots and there's something beautiful and special when a book makes you feel seen, and so I read his book and it's part of this collection of books that I'd say Bessel, Peter Levine, who wrote Waking the Tiger, and he's the founder of Somatic Experiencing, Gabor Mate when the Body, body says no, and many other ways. That's stitching together this science and art of what's going on here, of how so many of us are sick from trauma, nervous system dysregulation and then Hilary. It had to be less than six weeks after reading his book. I'm sitting in my local coffee shop, Six Depot, here in West Stockbridge. 23:16 I live in the Berkshires shout out yeah, holla, right, go get some cold brew and this dude walks in and I don't know what made me look up or glance at him or hear his voice and I was like, did Bessel van der Kolk just walk into my coffee shop? And I never do this? And I was so embarrassed but I, like, I went up and fan boyed right and I was like, um, I simply said, you know, Hi. Are you Bessel van der Kolk? And he goes, yes, and I go. Well, I just needed to tell you I recently read your book and it was revelatory and I'm just so grateful to you and for your work. And, uh, you, you know, thank you, and he goes. Oh well, you know, thank you for letting me know. I'm really glad about that. And his wife is next to him and she goes who are you? 24:05 And I go. Oh, I'm Karden and I'm a body worker and I have a clinic here in town and she goes. Well, we've just recently relocated out here to the Berkshires. We've been looking for a new body worker here because they had moved from Boston and I know like what Just happened. 24:26 - Hilary Russo (Host) And. 24:27 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I know what it was like, what just happened, who orchestrated this? Am I about to get punked or something Right? And you know, the rest is history. Within a couple weeks they came into the clinic, we hit it off and we're dear friends. I've been seeing Bessel now as a client for five, six years and he's obviously become a dear mentor and he was instrumental in supporting me during the process of writing the Secret Language of the Body and that's how Bessel and I know each other. But also the reason why Bessel was so supportive of this book is that he wrote a book called the Body Keeps the Score that this process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders absolutely requires a nonverbal approach through the unspoken language of the body. And that's why our book is called the Secret Language of the Body. 25:33 Because if you're like, wait, did Karden just say that my emotional state has to do with my low back pain or my migraines or my IBS? What the hell is he talking about? It's like that fish who's in water. You ask a fish how's the water Like? What are you talking about? Right, they don't know they're in water. 25:48 It takes training to get out of your head, out of your endless cognitive loop and actually tune in to the sensations, emotions, experience and information that come from your autonomic nervous system in your body. And that's what we teach people. We teach people to become aware of this universe of activity going on just below their chin. And, as you can become aware of that secret language, it's like being able to. It's like people are speaking Italian around me. Oh my God, I can't believe people are speaking Italian around me. And then, once you can speak it, once you can start hearing it, you're like oh my God, I just learned a couple words of Italian. Now I can ask where the bathroom is, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right. You can actually start navigating a foreign country when you have the language. Well, you can start navigating, influencing and mastering the foreign language of your body once you start speaking it I love how you put that. 26:48 - Hilary Russo (Host) That is such a brilliant way of thinking about it that it's it's like, um, emerging into the culture, right. So emerge into the culture of your own body. Emerge into the culture of your own body, right. Learn the language of your body. That's brilliant. That's a really great way of putting it. How does this book differ from Bessel's book? Because Bessel's book is not very layman, it's very scientific and it is such a good book. But how is yours different some years later? But how is yours? 27:15 - Karden Rabin (Guest) different some years later. Bessel's book is extraordinarily, like I said, relevatory. And then he does review five very powerful treatment approaches that you can try to do with a therapist, like EMDR, internal family systems, neurofeedback. But ultimately the book is not a manual on how you can begin healing yourself. It has changed the course of the world, and again it then refers you to things you could do. 27:47 But for those who want to read that book and like me and probably like you, Hilary, like, instantly hit it, like, how do I start healing this now? Right, that's what our book does. So our book has almost 100 practices in it and the entire manuscript is organized around a process that we call AIR, and the AIR approach stands for awareness, interruption and redesign. Right, you have to become aware of the conversation that's happening in your body. Right, that's the first thing. If you can't hear it, if you don't even know Italian is being spoken around you, you're SOL. All right, now you're listening. Right, but how do you influence? Well, you have to be able to start speaking it and you have to start interrupting it, because your body is a pattern recognition and habit repetition. Pattern recognition and habit repetition machine. It does not change by itself, it just repeats its old, tried and true patterns, even if those patterns are destroying your life and your health. So you have to learn how to interrupt and go. Yo, shut up. You must stop doing this for a minute. Can we have a conversation, please? 29:06 And so our book starts with letting you hear the language. That's number one. Number two is a whole variety of techniques, from top-down cognitive behavioral techniques to bottom-up polyvagal techniques that allow you to interrupt the dysregulated conversation. And then the redesign component is basically even trauma, as sacred and meaningful as it is, is a constellation of shitty habits built on trying to help you survive, and you have to redesign those habits. And so that's the third step is redesign to create new neural pathways, new responses, and so that's the big difference between the body keeps the score and the secret language of the body. The body keeps the score, blows your mind with like the world is round, right, and then the secret language of the body says and this is how you build a sailboat and how to navigate it. 30:01 - Hilary Russo (Host) I love it and the fact that there are so many different approaches and techniques that you're sharing. And look, before I came into the work of Hhavening 30:09 techniques, I had no idea what it was. I'm like what is this Hhavening thing? It's learning about something new. See if it works for you. There might be 100 ideas in there of what you can do, but choose what works for you. It doesn't mean you have to implement 100 of them. Find the ones that work for you, cherry, pick and choose what works for you, because it's all bio individuality. So, again, we're going to share that book. We'll share them all. 30:33 But I really want to focus on your book because it's now, it's present, it's current, it's new, and with new thoughts come new possibilities, and that's the secret language of the body Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. And if you think that this episode will touch, move and inspire somebody and someone's like oh my gosh, not only am I going through this, somebody else is, pay this forward, pass this conversation along, leave a rating review. It lets people know that this episode exists. With Karden, we're going to certainly have more conversations. I do not doubt that Karden and also you are giving away the first module of your online nervous system program HEAL, for free. Hello people, Grab it now. 31:18 That's all I'm saying Grab it now. Is HEAL, an acronym. 31:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest) No, heal's not an acronym. It's what we want to do. We want to heal folks and you know I wanted to call it CURE. We ended up calling it HEAL. But as you said at the beginning of this program, Hilary, jen and I, we do not have a program built on managing symptoms F that we do not have a program built on managing symptoms f that we have a program built on healing symptoms like gone, bring it, I'm serious bring it like gone, so and that, when and that if and when, because part of healing especially when your nervous system's regulation is not like always being perfect, right, that's not how life works. 31:57 But if you do have a dip and you do like, oh, my low back's coming down or my belly's coming back a little bit, you know exactly what to do. You know exactly why you take that sacred symptom, as we often call it, because it's a messenger saying up, up, up, up up. You are moving into that dysregulated zone again. Maybe you've made some life choices that aren't quite right, maybe survival parts of yourself from the past have reestablished control and the progress you made has been diminished. So your symptoms, not only do they mostly go, they go away, but when they do arise, they are this powerful signal that says, oh course, correct, we're doing the things that we're not supposed to do for ourselves. So yeah, and so it's called Heal Foundations. You can go to somiainternational dot com. That's one place you can find Heal Foundations, also at Karden Rabin, following me on Instagram and going to my link tree. 32:54 - Hilary Russo (Host) That's where all? 32:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest) the good stuff is, but you can learn how to dive right into this immediately. 32:59 - Hilary Russo (Host) We're going to share all of that in the list notes of the podcast because people need to know that they can get the book, they can get the programs, they get the free, free, that course, the first part of the course, just so they can see if this is right for them. Right, but I mean, giving it a shot is better than not doing it at all, right, so we're going to share all of that. I'm curious. Amen, amen to that. So, mia, speaking Italian, the moment you were talking about learning about a different language in the body, it brought me back to when I first asked you how do you say the name of your course? 33:34 - Karden Rabin (Guest) And you're like, so me like the Italian word, so Mia yeah, like it makes me wanna go into into the song. 33:40 So can we talk about that for a minute, cause we haven't even touched on that yet of the impact of the course, of the HEAL program, and SOMIA is what holds it all together. And SOMIA is an international nervous system and somatics platform that is designed to teach anyone how to master, to really understand, to become intimately connected, to influence and transform their own mind, body and nervous system, and not just through a collection of practices but through a profound understanding and application of principle. Because mastery isn't monkey see monkey do. Mastery isn't just being really good at the vagus techniques or really good at the internal family systems or parts work process. It's beyond that. It's understanding how the system works so that you are so kind of intimately aware that you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I know what. I, I need this right now. Like you were saying, Hilary, I don't need a hundred techniques, this is the one that's appropriate right now. So that''s what Somia exists for to educate the world about through the means of the course and our other offerings. 35:07 And then SOMIA community is called the Healing Collective. 35:11 So inside the course itself we have these absolutely wonderful mentors, and all of our mentors came to our program, came to work with Jen and I when they were bed bound with illness, with a symptom list that was terrifyingly long, from CFS to post-viral syndromes, to ectopic heartbeats, to mast cell activation system. 35:37 These folks were in dire straits and they used nervous system regulation in our program to get their lives back. And, as you know, Hilary, often when you've found something that transforms your life to such a degree, it becomes your calling to pay it forward right, and so our healing collective is held by those mentors, and we have online forums of fellow self healers who are on the path just like you. There are Q&As with the mentors that help you each step of the way through the healing process, through the practices, through mastering the understanding of how you work, and then, of course, jen and I are present as well. So Mia really does want to bring more people together in real life to do this healing process part of your collective and it's not about one collective, it's about the Odyssey right. 36:51 - Hilary Russo (Host) The Odyssey it is, and I love everything that you're doing. I really feel that you're. This journey and everything that you've been through and you know this, I don't need to tell you this, but it feels good to say it is that everything you've been through has brought you to where you are, so that you can serve others. And the more we can do for ourselves, the more we can help others on their journey. And one other thing you need to have a podcast, and if you don't do a podcast, you need to at least do voiceovers with that voice. I know you've been told that before. 37:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I do. You're stroking my ego with my sisters and my wife would please ask you not to do. The audio book is read by me and Jen, so I read the narrative and the explanatory parts and then Jen reads the practices. It's a really nice duet of I guess baritone and soprano. 37:37 So that's my first foray, so I'll get to podcasting another time, but I was actually just really thinking about your expression, that from trauma to triumph, and so something that I really want to offer for you and all your listeners is that if we move past the nervous system for a second and start simply with the idea of energy, chi, or a term that I like, which is called life force, most folks know now and I hope, if they don't hear this from me that all of your survival patterns, all of your coping responses, all of your trauma responses, are extraordinary efforts by your mind and body, by your nervous system, by your life force to protect you and keep you alive. And it's wildly powerful, like if for a moment you didn't criticize your trauma response and just looked how potent it was. Like, holy shit, look at all of this energy that mobilizes to protect me. You know like it's so powerful it could light up a city. You know, and it feels that way sometimes in your body. Yet when it is stuck, when it's patterned and habitualized by trauma into survival, it is life force that's trapped in a very dark and unhelpful place. And the beauty of this work is that, as you recognize it and you're able to liberate that life force that's in the trauma response and then redesign it, that same volcano of energy that's been deploying for your entire life to keep you protected, safe and surviving. You get to reclaim that life force for triumph, for living, for creativity, for fucking crushing it at life. 39:51 I'm 100% serious about this, that the greatest victory of my healing journey has not been getting out of pain although that's been fucking dope not to be in pain. Dope not to be in pain. It's been the reabsorption and feeling of how vital and bright I can be, how amazing my body can feel, how much love I can feel right, how much joy I can feel. And I just want to. I just want to repeat that, guys, when we say from trauma to triumph, it is about taking that life force and reabsorbing it into beautiful, amazing, profound and delicious aspects of being alive, rather than just surviving. And it's there in you already. It's just doing things that aren't helpful anymore and it's really amazing to transform it. It's already there. 40:45 - Hilary Russo (Host) And it's possible, it's more than possible. You listen to this episode and suddenly you were going to. It could be the click in your head that you needed to know, oh, almost like when you picked up Bessel's book or John Sonnero's book or any, or somebody's going to pick up your book. It could be that one little aha that you've been waiting for. And don't ignore those signs. That's the thing. It's like. Our body knows, our gut, that whole force inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit. Right inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit right and be like was that was? 41:22 that eagle that you know, like the eagle story that you shared before. Like is this eagle telling me a whole thing about this building that I'm working in? And it was a different message that you got and we talked about that trauma to triumph, trauma to triumph like triumph, trauma to triumph. 41:37 My friends, you explained it so and it's so lovely to have you share it that way and use everything you're doing to kind of well not kind of to actually be in alignment with what this podcast is about but also just the conversation as friends, like I get it and I love it, and I love that we're sharing it. So, once again, we will share everything about the book. We're going to share that course, that free introduction to the course. You know more about SOMIA now and HEAL and everything that Karden is putting out there. Real quick, I do want to ask you one question and then we're going to play a little game real quick. How did you and Jen come? 42:13 - Karden Rabin (Guest) together. That life is a combination of being at cause and also, if not, trusting, listening to the universe, right? David Goggins is an example of an invincible man at cause, right, which is amazing, but it's a huge amount of work and it's all on you. It's a hard way to live, right? So when I say at cause, we do have to do work, folks, we have to develop ourselves, we have to seize opportunities. When they're there, we can't expect that things fall in our lap, but we also, if, like, things are really in our way making it so hard, maybe there's something to listen there. And also, when things are put into us in a silver platter, maybe there's something to listen there. 42:59 So, although I have done so much work to learn about trauma and somatics and healing the nervous system, it all started in the most random way of John Sarno's book Finding Me on my friend's bookshelf the studio owner's bookshelf, right. So I just want to illustrate that I love the blend of our own efforts moving us forward, but also so beautifully capturing the moments of good fortune of COVID, right, because COVID hit in like March of 2020. Some of you might remember, some of you may have never heard of it For about like six months a hot minute this social media app called Clubhouse took off. 43:53 - Hilary Russo (Host) Oh God, what happened to Clubhouse People still? 43:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest) have it Right, like why do you even have an account? Yeah, we're not getting to why it failed, but when it was busting it was Boston. Yeah yeah um, a friend of mine for weeks insisted Karden, you got to get on clubhouse, you got to get on clubhouse and I told him to f off. Over and over and again I was like I don't have the bandwidth to take on another social media platform. I don't even like being on the one I am and he's like no, you got to do it and like you, you know, Hilary, he's like Karden . 44:19 I would pay to make you stop talking, but people love hearing you talk. You need to get on that thing. You're best talking. And I was like, ah fine, so anyway I get on Clubhouse and I end up loving it, I end up loving it. 44:35 Colleague and teacher, charlie Merrill, who's a brilliant physical therapist in this neuroplastic pain space, like of solving pain through the brain, because that's where it's actually caused by he's great Guys. You should look up Charlie Merrill and follow him on Instagram. He and I ran a show on Clubhouse Weekly called Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived Clubhouse Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived clubhouse For the short-lived clubhouse. And it was. We loved it. Right, people would come into the clubhouse and we would talk about neuroplastic pain, about conditioned responses, about how the brain's responsible for pain, and we would have people would be able to come on stage and ask questions about how to deal with X, y and Z injury or pain process. And it was great. 45:26 And during this time, jen, who you know, we knew nothing of one another. 45:28 She was in London recovering from a year and a half of being horribly sick and bed bound with chronic fatigue syndrome, pots, mass cell activation syndrome, mitochondrial dysfunction like the entire menu of catastrophic nervous system dysregulation and collapse. 45:48 And she had made about. She was in the midst of healing through various nervous system techniques and she, that same day that I was running the show with charlie, she downloaded the app, hopped on for the first time ever, stumbled into the room of ask the pain guys, listened to our conversation, asked a question. We had a little good exchange on Clubhouse. She signed off, never went back on Clubhouse again, but she sent me a DM through Instagram to follow up on the conversation in Clubhouse and then we hit it off on Instagram. She became a client and then she became my friend and my colleague and my partner and we, this entire movement of Somia, of the HEAL program, of the thousands of people that we've helped, of the secret language of the body. None of this would have happened ever if she and I hadn't collided when we should have never, ever collided in a million years for 30 minutes on Clubhouse. 47:06 - Hilary Russo (Host) That's crazy, so we have to really say thanks to Clubhouse. It's like being in a bad relationship and you're like, oh, I don't know why that happened. And then you're like, oh wait, that led me to this right. 47:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Exactly Clubhouse. That was the bad relationship that led me to this right. Exactly. Clubhouse, that was the bad relationship Exactly and COVID. 47:23 Thanks for locking us all in home for a year and a half, so that we had to be on this app because we had nothing else to do, right? So, yeah, that's how Jen and I met and we are clearly long-lost siblings. But yeah, that's the magic of that, that's what I'm saying. And then to seize it, to then do it, to go for it once it was there. But, once again, success is a mysterious thing, isn't it? 47:53 - Hilary Russo (Host) I love that you share that story. It's so inspiring. I mean, especially when you told me that you wrote the book in 100 days. You know, as someone who's sitting here finishing my book and submitting my proposals and stuff, I'm like, oh God, a book is supposed to take me years and I'm a writer, right. But it's all the synergy, it's all the alignment and things, just just trusting that everything will work out, not just writing a book, but just the people that come into your life, the situations. You have, a lot of synergies that have happened in your life and we can manifest to the day as long. Right, Manifesting is great, but I think a lot of it is just releasing, letting go, surrendering, trusting, but also like having a clear idea of like I know I'm here for something more. I know I'm here for something. This shit did not happen for no reason. I say that all the time. I'm like those days when you're in the shit, you're like it's gotta be for something, Gotta be for something it really does. 48:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest) It really does and I invite you know if you're alive, it means that you also have diamonds in your life, and what that means. And what that means and what I think can be a really nice practice is to to maybe close your eyes. Or, the next time you're in a shower, close your eyes and think about every wildly improbable instance that has led you to where you are, where you are still alive or you're in like. Despite all this hardship, you have this remarkable partner right or a job, and what I want you to look at is those improbable moments of like yeah that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gone to the coffee shop at that fucking moment of that day. 49:42 Well, in my instance, bessel van der Kolk, freaking, wandered in right. But we all have these moments. Hilary, can you think of the ones you have? Like just the countless like you and I bumping into each other at Joshua's right, like just that how sweet of a thing, you know. And when you start looking at that, like how sweet of a thing, you know, and when you start looking at that there is a kind of haven that wraps itself around your body and your skin. You almost get goosebumps in a good way, where you're like, holy shit, these diamonds. None of them quote unquote should have happened. None of them happened because I made them happen. They happened because life stumbled them into me. 50:25 - Hilary Russo (Host) Oh God, we are so in alignment. I say that all the time. I don't say that, I say that life is a falling into. We fall into these moments. I love that you say that because it's just. It's amazing how things happen and sometimes we can't explain and we don't need to have answers. Sometimes, not having the actual answer or proof positive is the answer. The answer is just be happy that it's happening right. 50:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Just be happy. 50:57 - Hilary Russo (Host) I mean, I think about that event that we did Heal the Healer and I know you and I have done many events other than that, but that event was really something special and I do want to give a shout out to Joshua Rosenthal for that, because whether you went through IIN or not, which is the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, you know each other somehow, whether you live in the shires, as you call it. I love that, which I'm looking for real estate, like tomorrow. There's something about that event that just brought a lot of people together and so much synergy with folks, because we're all on a healing journey forever. You know, we're always looking to better ourselves and and just feel better and be better. 51:36 - Karden Rabin (Guest) That event was was one of those moments, I have to say, for me it really was and and like, like that whole audience was in cindy, like it was so nice to just walk into a place where you're like these are my people, that's what we're here for, everyone wanting to make a contribution, everyone being thirsty for learning more about this. 51:55 And I'd also say, the kind of quantum leap of none of this trauma stuff was really really being talking about what two or even four years ago Right, but it's definitely not five or 10 years ago or this is just the next wave, and I get that and I hear it and there's a lot of bullshit out there the velocity with which this knowledge is circulating and that people are incorporating the nervous system and trauma component into their overall health picture, to add it to the Venn diagram or really, as I like to think about it, it is the background to the entire diagram, like food, fitness, all these other things. They float on top of the nervous system. So it's like let's start dealing with that. It was just so great to see it all clicking so well there, and so I applaud Joshua for putting that together for having us and for just being a leader in the space. 52:52 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, he definitely is that pioneer in that space and it's one of those things that brings people together. So we could talk for hours and I imagine we're going to have many more conversations, but for the benefit of your time and mine and those who are like all right, I need to park my car. I keep going in circles wanting to. I have so many people that say that they're like. 53:14 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I hope they're doing that, or they're like Jesus. Will this, will this guy stop? 53:19 - Hilary Russo (Host) Oh no, I do not think that's it. I've had people that are like I actually took the long way to work because I was listening to the podcast. So those are those moments. I love that. So what I want to do with you real quick is play a game. I do this with those on the show on the show, so loosen yourself up. I'm going to throw out a word and some of these words well, all these words are those words that you've said during our conversation. 53:42 - Karden Rabin (Guest) We're not going to do like a rap battle, are we? 53:44 - Hilary Russo (Host) We're going to do a rapid fire word association. 53:48 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I can already feel my freeze response starting, so let's try it. 53:55 - Hilary Russo (Host) I know a book you can read that might help you with that. All right, here we go. Here we go, all right. 54:03 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Biohack. 54:06 - Hilary Russo (Host) Lotus. 54:08 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Vegas. 54:10 - Hilary Russo (Host) Helpful. 54:12 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Somatic. 54:15 - Hilary Russo (Host) Everything so me, yeah, pasta, everything so me pasta. 54:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I'm sorry had to uh traumatic, healable emotional always two words nervous system everywhere author Two words nervous system. 54:43 - Hilary Russo (Host) Everywhere. Author Me yeah, you and heal. 54:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Now. 54:50 - Hilary Russo (Host) You're like a little kid, You're like that's me. 54:57 - Karden Rabin (Guest) My identity has not caught up to the fact that I wrote a book. 55:01 - Hilary Russo (Host) Not just wrote a book. Like wrote a book, that's really doing well. That's true, that's true, yeah, and you have a huge publisher behind you. You know not that you have to. Don't want to discourage people that might not have publishers, or self-published, because putting a book out there and putting your knowledge out there is amazing. But let's just give credit where credit is due. 55:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I'm going to age myself. I appreciate that I'm going to age myself, though, so I got interviewed by the BBC a week or so ago about the book and it was a guy named Gavin. 55:36 Uh, Ggavin Ramjaun had me on, you know, and he and he starts the interview out by like, he's like we've got a nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin, here, but that's like how does it feel to be flying up the book charts, right? And I was like, ah, I feel like I'm on like some Casey Kasem interview, you know, with the top 100, you know and I was like hallucinating. 55:57 I'm like, is this my life? Is this, like you know? And so, yeah, you know, the book cracked the. The book has been released in the UK and it comes out in the United States a couple weeks later, so there's a slight difference. So we cracked the UK Amazon top 100 for all books. So that means like we're up against war and peace and the Hunger Games and the Hungry, hungry Caterpillar and that was really awesome. But yeah, like I said, I you're right, I've written this book, but like I still don't, I still haven't caught up to the fact that I've written it. 56:27 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, I think that's just you staying empathetic and compassionate and being the true person you are, like you can be a best selling author. And being the true person you are, like you can be a best-selling author, an Academy Award winning actor, you know whatever. Like give someone a title, that's fine, but when the day is done, you come into this earth naked and you leave it naked, so-. 56:46 - Karden Rabin (Guest) You sure do. 56:47 - Hilary Russo (Host) Right. So it's appreciating every day. 56:50 - Karden Rabin (Guest) If your people are wondering, like whether this is me now, this is me in the course this is me now. 57:02 - Hilary Russo (Host) This is me in the course. This is me. If you're in a live thing, I don't really shape, shift too much. I'm this guy, I love that. I love that. So is it just a course, or do you? 57:07 - Karden Rabin (Guest) still take clients one-on-one, I mean, besides Bessel, right, right. So my private practice is currently closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. Closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. What we do do is we're continuing to train more and more mentors to be able to support the student body, and then the course is taught in one of two ways. 57:27 There's the self-study version, which is what most people do and it's what you have to start with. But the self-study version, again, is supported by that healing collective. And then Jen and I, a couple times a year, will run 12-week intensives where for those who have completed the HEAL program, it's an intimate group and it's live with Jen and I every week for 12 weeks. It's such a remarkable experience. Oh, I imagine it's remarkable because of what being in relationship does folks Like? If you know anything about trauma healing or the polyvagal system, that human connection, the ventral, vagal response, being in community as human mammals we find safeties in others. We can make so much progress healing on our own, but when we become a pod and when we're swimming in the same direction, 90% of the healing that happens in that happens because of the absolutely beautiful and authentic sharing, vulnerability and triumph of the fellow participants, and Jen and I just have to literally support and scaffold the unfolding of that process and it just blows my mind every time. 58:50 - Hilary Russo (Host) I love it. I am so excited to share this because I can think of a handful of people well, handful. I can think of way more than that that would benefit from this, but people who are close to me that I know would benefit from it. Quite frankly, I'm curious. 59:04 - Karden Rabin (Guest) Hey, you might have to join us for that party. Hill yeah Right. 59:08 - Hilary Russo (Host) I love it. I love everything about it. Thank you so much for being here, sharing your gift, sharing just the knowledge you have, but just your own story, because it is going to help somebody else many people, I imagine. But do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with those tuning in? 59:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest) I feel like you've had a lot of them, but Well, we went back to you know when the word game. I warmed up as we went through. 59:31 - Hilary Russo (Host) I want to say two things, I think. 59:33 - Karden Rabin (Guest) When you said biohack, I said lotus, we're gonna, we're gonna delete that. Because when you said biohack, what I really wanted to say was, um, and the reason why I wanted to say is that we do not heal ourselves through a collection of biohacks. Remember what I said earlier, that you know, mastery is a profound understanding and application of principles. And if we bring it back to the language analogy of speaking Italian, you can think of biohacks as, like you know about like nine or 10 phrases, and they can be really useful. Where's the bathroom? How do I get to the piazza? You know my name, is what's your name and my age, and with like with 10 or so biohacks or pieces of language, you can, you can, you're doing okay, right, you can correct things, you can get around. But it is a thousand miles away from true fluency and I would really invite your listeners to take that into heart, that the goal is exquisite, intimate, painful, transcendent, triumphant fluency with your humanity, with your being, with your nervous system, with your history, with your emotions, with all of it, and through that fluency you can understand it with a huge amount of empathy. But then you can also begin to lead it, you can carry the conversation, you can direct it, you can run for office, you can start a business right, like what you're capable of. When you can speak instead of just say a couple phrases. It's the biggest difference in the world. 01:01:20 So stop looking for just more practices. Folks. Find folks like Hilary and I and the other people who are teaching you how to see the forest, not just the trees right, that's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. That's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. You said heal and I said now, like, timing comes for all of us, but if you can just remember, I said it was a combination of being at cause and having the universe stumble into you. Like, right now, something might be stumbling into you and my invitation for you is to say yes and try it and do it. 01:02:02 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yes, Standing in the tension of that moment is like right before the change happens. You know you're like you're, you're aware you're in the A. It's the awareness. If you weren't aware you'd'd be. Like hands are flailing and you're doing whatever right. You're in it, you feel it, it's happening. 01:02:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest) That's had I not gone up had I not fanboyed on vessel van right. So again the universe brought it into me. You best will walk into the cafe. But had I given into my fear and my embarrassment and not fanboy, I would not have one of the most important relationships in my entire life. Oh, I felt that so say yes, y'all, like in those moments when the universe has has thrown you an easy pass. Fucking catch it and run with it. 01:02:55 - Hilary Russo (Host) Yeah, get out of the ego way, that fear of being rejected. It's really what it is. 01:03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest) It's so much easier than working hard for everything all the time. 01:03:04 - Hilary Russo (Host) Right, I don't have to work for a living. 01:03:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest) So those are my final thoughts, Hilary, and next time we talk, I think it would be fun to talk about, instead of recovering from pain. It'd be really cool to maybe talk about relationships, because that's, I think, another massive space. Oh, I'm all over it. 01:03:23 - Hilary Russo (Host) All right yeah. 01:03:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest) We'll do that next time, all right so? 01:03:27 - Hilary Russo (Host) On that note, thank you so much for saying yes to this conversation and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time, because I'm just glad you said yes conversation, and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time because, uh, I'm just glad you said yes. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I'm going to close on that. Now, that is how you close a conversation. You have been handed a huge gift by Karden, so I do not want you to waste a moment. Take advantage of it as soon as possible. I've not only shared how you can connect with him, I'm also sharing a few special links so that you can take advantage of Heal program and offer from me to you. Just for tuning in to the HIListically Speaking podcast, you can even tell him that Hilary sent you plus grab a copy of that book. Do not waste any time. 01:04:21 The Secret Language of the Body. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. All of that is in the listen notes of this episode. You're also going to find information on how to connect with me and learn more about how you can put healing in your own hands with Hhavening techniques Because, like I said, like we talked about during this conversation. It's about finding what works for you. You have lots of options, loads of possibilities and plenty of support. If this conversation touched, moved and inspired you in any way, consider paying it forward. Pass it along to somebody else who might find value in it and listen, share your thoughts in a rating or review, wherever you're tuning in, because that conversation and those thoughts, those thoughtful responses will help others find this episode and heal hHolistically. 01:05:12 HIListically Speaking is edited by 2Market Media, with music by Lipone Redding and supported by you. So thank you. On that note, just a reminder that these traumas in our lives, there are triumphs just waiting to be celebrated. You have the tools to heal, you have the support. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you soon. Be well.
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