Prefigurative politics, building the new within the old, exercising our muscles of collectivity and collaboration—muscles that have grown weak and atrophied under capitalist hegemony—these are all ideas and practices that play a crucial role in our revolutionary movements. And examples of prefiguration can and do take many interesting and inspiring forms—one of these forms is worker self-direction, or worker cooperatives. In today's episode we're talking prefiguration and worker self-direction—and we've split the episode up into two parts so that we can dive deeply into both. Part one of our conversation takes a deep dive into the concept and practice of prefigurative politics, which is, simply put, the attempt to implement the world that you want to live in, now. And we've brought on the perfect guest to talk about it. Saio Gradin teaches Politics at Kings College, London and is a community organizer and educator who has spent twenty years running workshops, campaigns and organizations for global justice. They are the author of the book, Prefigurative Politics: Building Tomorrow Today, published by Polity Books. Part two of our conversation is going to take a deep dive into one form of prefiguration—worker self-direction—specifically, we'll exploring the ins and outs of working at a self-directed not-for-profit, which is structurally similar to a worker cooperative, but we'll get into more those details in the conversation. The point is, we'll be talking about what it's like to work in a democratically-run organization. And to have that conversation, we've brought on Nicole Wires. Nicole is an organizer and the Network Director for the Nonprofit Democracy Network and a worker-member of the Sustainable Economies Law Center. In this episode, we explore the concept of prefiguration and how it compares and contrasts to other revolutionary strategies. We explore examples of prefiguration in history and today and why prefigurative politics are an important component of our revolutionary movements. In part two we take a deep dive into the process and practice of prefiguration specifically in the context of worker self-direction, exploring the benefits and challenges of being part of a self-directed organization, the different types of decision-making processes utilized by certain worker-run firms, and how worker cooperatives—and the many forms they take—fit into a broader ecosystem of individuals and organizations striving to live their values in a world dominated by the logic of capital. Further Resources Prefigurative Politics: Building Tomorrow Today, published by Polity Books Could pre-figurative politics provide a way forward for the left? by Siao Gradin in OpenDemocracy Indian Home Rule Movement Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Communities League (Marcus Garvey) The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman Related Episodes: Worker Cooperatives Pt. 1: Widening Spheres of Democracy (Documentary) Worker Cooperatives Pt. 2: Islands within a Sea of Capitalism (Documentary) Be More Pirate w/ Sam Conniff Craftivism with Sarah Corbett Transition Towns with Rob Hopkins Intermission music: "Garbage Factory" by Bobby Frith This episode was produced in collaboration with EcoGather, a collapse-responsive co-learning network that hosts free online Weekly EcoGatherings that foster conversation and build community around heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. In this collaboration, EcoGather will be hosting gatherings to bring some Upstream episodes to life—this is one of those episodes. Join the EcoGather team on Tuesday, Nov. 26 at 5pm ET for a warm and welcoming conversation! Find out more here. Upstream is a labor of love—we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.