In this conversation with an interviewer, Max Hillebrand and Ben Perrin discuss privacy risks and tools for reducing them. Hillebrand argues that people who use mainstream apps without scrutiny give up significant personal data, citing Google Maps location data as an example. He also says AI agents now let non-programmers build freedom tech. Perrin describes a gradual shift from Android to GrapheneOS and from Mac to Linux, and buying devices with Bitcoin through gift cards and prepaid cards. The guests cover password managers, Wasabi coinjoins, peer-to-peer Bitcoin markets, Zapstore, Tor VPN, and White Noise, a messenger Hillebrand works on that is built on the Marmot protocol and MLS. They also discuss local and TEE-based AI, self-hosting on old laptops, quantum risk to cryptography, and Hillebrand's argument that trade and price discovery depend on privacy. Duration: 5639 seconds. Language: English. ## Transcript and chapters [Read the formatting-cleaned transcript](https://relay.towardsliberty.com/26c897d0119b3221c282e27134cb348692096d03a3b501c3e7f77dc31aed7fc3.asc) · [Timed captions (WebVTT)](https://relay.towardsliberty.com/e2f4980f81b2e55d0ef567bd639564ac60812a945b90b50cabf32f38988cb882.vtt) · [Chapter data](https://relay.towardsliberty.com/2ee9b6950e9f7dc6d84bbaf969ee4513e88eca0f8ea8abf5ecb89aaacb5e9205.json) The transcript comes from the publisher’s captions. Formatting and repeated adjacent lines have been cleaned; wording has not been substantively corrected. Caption errors may remain. ## Original publisher description > Mentor Sessions EP 105 | Max Hillebrand & Ben Perrin on GrapheneOS, White Noise, Local AI, KYC-Free Bitcoin and Privacy Guerrilla Warfare > > If you click next, next, next on mainstream tech, your privacy is fucked. But Max Hillebrand (White Noise, Marmot protocol, author of The Praxeology of Privacy) and Ben Perrin (BTC Sessions, Sovereign Sessions) argue the tools to route around surveillance have never been better. With an old laptop, an AI agent, Nostr and Zapstore, you can now build and ship a freedom tech app without knowing how to code. > > From there, they walk through a practical privacy stack: Pixel phones running GrapheneOS (8, 9 or 10, not the 11), Linux laptops, password managers, paying privately with gift cards and prepaid cards, Wasabi Wallet and peer-to-peer Bitcoin, Zapstore, Tor VPN, Amber and White Noise for encrypted messaging, local AI and trusted execution environments, self-hosting on an old laptop, quantum risk to encryption, and why privacy matters for honest price discovery. > > Timestamps: > 0:00 Cold Open > 0:41 Privacy Guerrilla Warfare: Can We Route Around the Grid? > 2:37 Build an Anonymous App Without Coding > 6:19 Why Your Data Is So Valuable > 7:38 Google Maps and Your Location Data > 9:40 GrapheneOS, Organic Maps and Linux > 10:53 Is the Privacy UX Gap Closing? > 15:23 Moving the Cultural Needle on Privacy > 20:12 Starting a Private Device Setup > 24:46 OS-Level ID Verification > 25:41 Best Pixels for GrapheneOS: 8, 9, 10, Not the 11 > 27:05 Linux Laptops and Operating Systems > 28:54 Face Scan vs PIN > 30:27 Passwords and Password Managers > 32:19 Paying Privately With Gift Cards and Prepaid Cards > 35:07 Spending Bitcoin Through Friends > 37:13 Wasabi Wallet and On-Chain Privacy > 38:21 Getting Bitcoin Without KYC > 41:38 Zapstore, Tor VPN, Amber and White Noise > 48:00 How the Marmot Protocol Works > 55:52 How Disappearing Messages Work > 57:57 Private AI and Running Local Models > 1:01:29 Talking to Your AI Agents Through White Noise > 1:07:37 Private Cloud AI With Maple and PPQ > 1:08:43 Trusted Execution Environments: Cypherpunk Magic > 1:14:35 Self-Host Your Data on an Old Laptop > 1:17:14 Is Quantum a Threat to Encryption and Bitcoin? > 1:25:09 The Economic Case for Privacy > 1:29:00 Ben's Blond Streak Disguise > 1:29:55 Where to Find Max, Ben and White Noise > > Tools mentioned: GrapheneOS, Organic Maps, Debian, Qubes OS, Pop!_OS, Omarchy, Framework, Apple Lockdown Mode, KeePass, Silent.Link, Bitrefill, Coincards, Garmin Pay, Wasabi Wallet, Lightning, Hodl Hodl, Bisq, RoboSats, Zapstore, Tor VPN, Obscura VPN, Amber, White Noise, Marmot protocol, MLS, Nostr, Nostr VPN, FIPS, Routstr, Cashu, Fedimint, Bionic, Maple, PPQ.ai > > Max Hillebrand (Nostr only): https://towardsliberty.com > White Noise: https://whitenoise.chat > Sovereign Sessions (tutorials): https://youtube.com/@SovereignSessions > > ⚡Previous Episode: > Jim Rickards & Simon Dixon: https://youtu.be/djc-F6TPfos > > 🔔 Subscribe for weekly Bitcoin Podcasts > 🐦 Follow on X: https://x.com/BTCSessions > 🐦 Follow on X: https://x.com/theBTCmentor > > ⚡Casa MultiSig & Inheritance: https://casa.io/sessions > 10% Off First Year Promo Code SESSIONS > > ⚡ Sponsored by Trezor - Get Your Safe 7 Today: https://affil.trezor.io/aff_c?offer_id=352&aff_id=1088 > > ⚡ POWERED by Abundant Mines: Fully managed Bitcoin mining. Learn more at https://qrco.de/bgYKPB > > ⚡ Sponsored by BITCOIN WELL: Best Place to BUY & SELL BITCOIN > https://qrco.de/bfiDC6 > > 💡BOOK Private Sessions with Nathan, Ben and the BTC Mentor Team: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. > 👉 Visit btcmentor.io > > #BitcoinPrivacy #GrapheneOS #Nostr #MaxHillebrand #BenPerrin #WhiteNoise #WasabiWallet #LocalAI #SelfHosting #FreedomTech #Cypherpunk #Bitcoin #BTCSessions #Privacy #Zapstore Originally published by [BTC Sessions](https://www.btcsessions.ca/). [Original episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYyHcPEaS3Y).